1 Vegan vs. 20 Meat Eaters (Jubilee Review) @Jubilee

Watch on YouTube · 2026-04-13 · 29 min

0:00 Hi guys, I'm going to review a video called 1 Vegan vs 20 Meat Eaters. Before I start the video, I want to make it clear that, from nature's perspective, It's not going to be one vegan debating 20 so-called meat eaters. We are going to be looking at 21 human beings who would be eating raw meat and drinking blood in nature. 20 of them are probably brainwashed to eat a plant-based diet with some cooked muscle meat, which is typically what you call a meat eater nowadays. And one of them is severely brainwashed to only eat plant foods. That really has to be understood.

[video] 0:49 I'm here in the center with our featured guest, Dr. Jack Symes. Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Are you ready to debate the circle? Sure am. I'm looking forward to hearing what reasons they've brought for their unethical lifestyles.

1:01 Lovely. I like it that he's British. What can I say?

[video] 1:05 Are you all ready to bring your best arguments? All right, let's get into it.

[video] 1:14 My first surrounded claim is extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible. If you'd like to be the first debater, get to the chair in three, two, one.

[video] 1:26 Easy, lad. Dr. Jack. Nice to meet you. What's your name, sir? I'm Dr. Pete. Nice to meet you. Hey, Dr. Pete. So I am very excited about this topic. I think it's super interesting that it touches on so much and all sorts of food. So I'm an emergency medicine physician. Do you want to, on the claim I made, first of all, do you disagree with that? I do. I do. Extreme suffering for trivial pleasures morally invincible. Can I give you the reason, then? You can disagree? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think this principle comes from many of the major world philosophies. So you could be religious or not religious. Or you could be a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim. You could be a Hindu, a Sikh. You could be a Buddhist. Or you could have one of the secular moral philosophies as well. You could be an Aristotelian, a utilitarian, an existentialist. But the easiest way to understand it is just being a utilitarian. A good action is one where you create lots of happiness and pleasure and very little pain and suffering. And unfortunately, when it comes to factory farming, it's the other way around in our treatment of non-human animals in general. Quick example, and then I'll let you jump in. A broiler chicken exists for six weeks. As soon as it's born, it has its beak clipped off with a guillotine. It's put in a cage so small it can't move. It's pumped full of food for six weeks straight. So fast that it's all...

2:16 He starts off with an appeal to religion fallacy, essentially. What does it matter what religious people believe? Who cares about ideas? You shouldn't base your life on ideas. You should base your life on facts.

2:38 this actual reality, not what you imagine, Not the morals, ethics or any of that. All of that is religious, which is why religious people follow those ideas.

[video] 2:50 And that's the thing. It's not about the taste on your lips or your taste buds. It's about...

3:13 eating the energy of the animal, so to speak. It's about consuming life.

[video] 3:20 And at the same time, I think that suffering... Do you think that's too much suffering for them? I would definitely also say that suffering is inevitable and it's essential. It's inevitable, but you can minimize it, right? Is there too much there? So as an emergency medicine doc who takes care of suffering all the time... I'm happy to talk about that, but if you can just say...

3:32 This is an irrelevant topic. It doesn't matter what any so-called vegans, people who follow this man-made diet or religious people say. none of them actually care about the suffering of other people that they don't know. Of course you care about the suffering of your family members, obviously, but nobody out there cares about the suffering of some pigs or chickens.

[video] 4:01 That too much suffering imparted onto the chicken. That particular example? Yeah. Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes to sustain 8 billion people across the world, I would say is not trivial. Well, it's easy to sustain 8 billion people without having animal agriculture. It's possible. I'd like to hear the mechanistic argument for that. But I will say as a philosophy, you're a philosopher, How many are there? There are 30 to 60 million children that are dying every year from starvation. UNICEF put it at 30 million. Dr. Richard Oplander puts it at 60 million. And so every year you've got 30 to 60 million. In 82% of those cases, the children are dying in places where the majority of the meat has been given to cattle and sold to more affluent countries. That's Ethiopia. That's Sudan. Sudan is the hungriest country major in the world, and it has one of the biggest livestock in all of Africa. So you can feed these people if you go to plant-based. You need 75% less land.

4:42 That's the whole problem. When they send them food, then they send them grains. And obviously that won't help. You cannot survive by eating seeds.

4:56 If they would send them meat, dairy products, then these people would actually survive.

[video] 5:02 The amount of agriculture which is used towards supporting these non-human animals to slaughter them, that's one of the biggest causes of not being able to feed them.

5:10 You're talking about a massive problem across billions of people, across many geographies, and I think what you bring... Is he saying that we feed the animals actual whole grains and whatnot? Because that's not the case. We feed them the leftover inedible parts of plant seeds. I thought that most people understand this. Does he really not understand it or is he lying on purpose?

[video] 5:44 is probably true. But at the same time, I don't think the solution to it is just either you're vegan or you're not. And what I mean to say is this about suffering, is that when you take care of people with strokes, heart attacks, domestic abuse, bear attacks, they're also violent predators that eat all sorts of things in addition to us, you know, you start to understand that there's two types of suffering. And I think that's the most important part. Two types of suffering. There's senseless suffering and there's meaningful suffering. And I think what you have to understand is that when you can create meaning behind suffering, you can transform it.

6:12 But again, it's an irrelevant point because nobody cares about the suffering of those animals anyway. If he would actually care, then he would break down on the floor crying right now because... Thousands of chickens and cows are being slaughtered all over the earth. Your body couldn't even take it. You would go into a coma because you care about the suffering so much. But as we can see, he's just sitting there, chilling. being kind of smug, as they are. And he's just talking about his religious beliefs.

[video] 6:52 Unnecessary suffering. And that's the vegan claim. I take veganism to be the practical ethical rule to avoid products and practices that cause unnecessary suffering. So would you agree that if you can do something without the suffering...

7:05 But again, what does the suffering matter? No animal on Earth, including humans,

[video] 7:13 cares about the suffering of some random animals that has never been observed offering you ought to do it without the suffering yes or no are you against if you answer that i'm happy to respond if you think you can do something without suffering or you do that i don't think avoiding suffering is the highest good what is the highest good I've just told you that every major world philosophy, I've just told you every single major world religion, every secular philosophy thinks that extreme suffering does not justify trivial pleasure. Can you name one world philosophy that thinks that extreme suffering can justify trivial pleasure? I don't need to name a philosophy. I think what it is is that in the ER, in reality, when I'm taking care of people recently diagnosed with cancer, or they have a child that died, et cetera. There's two big studies on the overall general health outcomes. The EPIC survey at the University of Oxford looked at half a million people over the last 30 years, and the Christian Adventist study in the United States of America looked at 75,000 people. In both these studies, it's found that you're likely to live significantly longer, less risk of heart disease, less risk of cancer, less risk of diabetes, less risk of obesity, if you're vegan rather than eating meat.

8:11 That's funny because in those studies, actually, the meat-eating people had the best health indicators. None of these are actual clinical endpoints. They are just speculating, trying to create some correlations. It's not even relevant anyway, but... If you want to take it somewhat seriously, then it should be understood that the meat eaters always come out on top.

[video] 8:43 And you can serve a purpose and you can have a beautiful life. You can make a positive contribution to the environment. Can I finish? Can I finish? Yeah, absolutely. So when I die, I want to be buried in the soil and I want to decompose so that my carbon returns to grass.

8:56 It's so strange that he just talks over him. It just shows that he's possibly close-minded, which they usually are.

[video] 9:06 The conscientious farming is a myth. You're not addressing my points. You are not addressing my points. You are deflecting because I literally backed you into a corner. What about all of the mice? What about all of the rabbits that die? Have you ever spent time on a farm? Yes, the soy is grown for the oil. I'm so glad that he said that because

9:42 When vegans argue with meat eaters, then the meat eaters usually do not respond to this point because they are ignorant about this topic. That's what I always say. They feed the leftover, inedible parts of soy to all of these animals which we farm. Only those parts Obviously. And these vegans always come and say that we grow the soy for those animals. That's bullshit. Nobody does that.

[video] 10:20 The leftover product is then fed to cattle. That is a manipulation.

10:23 Yes, exactly. He's completely right. The leftover product. All right. I like this guy.

[video] 10:30 I am here for discussion. You won't address the point. Let me respond. Go back to the soy. Go back to the soy. Go back to the soy. 75% reduction according to Hannah Ritchie in 2022. She says that's our world in data. You get 75% reduction in all agricultural land. 30% of all your agricultural land is given.

10:45 He's not even responding to the point.

[video] 10:49 We've got 80 to 90% species extinction.

10:51 You're not addressing the soy statistic that you just brought up. You're not addressing the soy statistic. He doesn't address it at all and simply talks over him. Wow.

[video] 11:02 5%, it is literally the byproduct. They grow the soy for the oil. Even if it wasn't being fed to the animals, they would still grow the soy. That is true. I've got the reference right here. And you don't understand the statistic. If you go and actually look at the statistic, all of the soy is taken, the oil is suppressed, and then the byproduct is what is fed to the animal. And it is 85%.

11:19 Yes, and it's so easy to look this up. I guess that he's willingly ignorant. He doesn't want to hear it. That's why he talks over him.

[video] 11:30 people who are close-minded usually do this percent of it is left over and that's what's happening 80 to 90 percent according to the wwf and the u.s why you're deflecting you're deflecting so you brought up a statistic and you said that 85 percent of soy is 80 percent 80 whatever you said you said the majority of soy is fed to cattle did you not That's an 80%. Okay, 80%. So really, now you're going to argue about 5%. You understand the intent. So you're saying that the majority of soy is fed to cattle. And I'm telling you that that is inaccurate. It's not as if the soybean in it. Listen to me. Listen to me. It's the nuance. It is the nuance that you were trying to deflect with. It is not as if 80% of all soy is fed to cattle in its natural state. The oil is extracted and then the byproduct is fed. It's being used because of factory farming for the raising cattle. I'm not defending factory farming. 80% to 90%. I'm not defending factory farming. Are you against regenerative agriculture? Are you against regenerative agriculture? Yes. I don't think that he understands what regenerative farming is. It doesn't destroy the land and actually it flourishes. He's pretty ignorant. Vegans are typically ignorant, but

12:45 He's something else.

[video] 12:47 It's caused by animal agriculture. Just because you're using that land. Yeah, 35%. Listen, ranchers who have hunting leases, meaning that they have a ranch, they have land, they don't allow animals on there. They will literally have ranchers bring their cattle in there and flash graze the grass because guess what? It improves the entire ecosystem.

13:02 Yes, exactly. It's so easy to understand. And it provides no energy.

[video] 13:06 What's the leading cause of deforestation? What happened in Yellowstone when they reintroduced wolves? What's the leading cause of deforestation in the Amazon? What happened in Yellowstone when they reintroduced wolves? You're not interested in having a conversation, are you? They're doing it for soy. Okay, but here's the deal, though. The deforestation is related to factory farming. You can get rid of the deforestation. You think you've got factory farms in the Amazon? They're doing it for soy. You've been aborted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.

13:31 I don't know why they voted him out. He was probably the best one out of all of them. I haven't seen the other ones, but he was good. He had really good points and the vegan couldn't respond to them.

[video] 13:45 Yeah, you were against whole foods plant-based? Yeah, I think any sensible nutritionist will say that you need to make sure you're doing it properly. You need to be doing it carefully. And that means, for a start, taking a B12 tablet. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think we do lots of unnatural things, flying on planes, watching...

14:00 He doesn't believe that there's anything wrong with these laboratory-made pills. They use potassium cyanide, sodium cyanide. Also, when they create them, and in the process of creating them, they use hydrochloric acid, sodium hydroxide, strong acids, toxic chemicals. How is there nothing wrong with these pills? Of course, once again, he is ignorant about how they are created.

[video] 14:36 I think going straight to the source and just having a B12 tablet is absolutely fine. I think when you put those two diets in front of someone, like if we're not in this debate and someone said to you, right, here's one diet where you take a B12 tablet, and here's another one where you've got an increased risk of heart disease, more likely to be obese, more likely to develop all kinds of cancers, and you're going to live 15 to 20% longer, according to the Christian Adventist study here in the United States, then I think most people would go for that one. I think we need better information of let's not go for just a whole foods diet without that nutrition. Yeah, I will say, since I'm responding to your claim, I do agree with your claim. That was the biggest thing that bothered me about being a vegan or vegetarian. And people would always go and they'd say, oh, but what about bacon? Come back to the light. The argument they gave from nature is one of the biggest, one of the worst arguments for being an anti-vegan. And why? Because there are lots of things that are predisposed through our natures that we shouldn't follow, right?

15:22 You should always be following your nature. Your nature will never be wrong. When you feel pain, discomfort, then you are doing something that is bad for you. And when you feel pleasure, when you know that what you are doing is good for you, then it is good for you. He is, of course, now going to say that nowadays, because people follow morals, these ideas... and all kinds of other ideas we shouldn't be doing this and that that is wrong that is right and so on but that's based on human ideas not your nature your nature is always correct no exceptions

[video] 16:07 She can obviously not be taken seriously. The guy before, he was good. She's just acting, I hope.

[video] 16:32 He has made the argument to me that, you know, taking an animal's life in the wild, you're sparing that animal from the worst death, a worse death that it will experience. Because when an animal dies in the wild,

17:01 Again, what does it matter? It's not as if you will suffer, you won't die. And that's all that matters, naturally. You can talk about morals or whatever kind of ideas, but we can see that both of them are sitting there and they don't care about the suffering that's going on. You can look at photos, videos, you can be there in real life when somebody is suffering and you still won't drop on the floor crying, why are you hurting this chicken, this chicken that eats small animals alive? They don't care. They know that not only is suffering part of life, but they do it on purpose. They just don't care because it's all about consuming their life. That's what the animals care about. It's the opposite of what you are talking about, essentially.

18:01 You talk about morals and how it's bad to cause suffering, but the animals that you want to protect do everything to make the other animals suffer. They want to consume as many as possible. They don't care if they are alive while they are eating them. But the point is simply that Whether they experience a little bit of suffering, if the death is quick, or if they experience a lot of suffering, you can look at the way bears see animals, they just see them alive. Still, what does it matter if you don't suffer, you don't die? That's all that matters for an animal, naturally. When you are about to suffer, if you know that somebody wants to do something to you, or even worse, if you believe that you may die, then you will care. Or if a family member of yours

19:01 may suffer, but not if some random unknown animals suffer.

[video] 19:10 Usually pretty ugly. It suffers a lot more. So he's reducing the suffering of animals. So I think you might be actually more aligned with hunters than you realize. I'm more aligned with hunters than the person who's engaging in factory farming or what they think is conscientious farming, for sure. What I will say is, first of all, the hunters typically aren't honest about why they do it. I think they do it because it's fun. I think they do it because it taps into that evolutionary feeling, like having sex feels good, being warm feels good, hunting feels good. I don't think it's sensible to deny those things. When you look at when they're hunting elk and deer...

19:38 He agrees that hunting feels good, meaning that killing animals feels good. Why? Because it's our nature. And that automatically means that it's correct to do it. It's right for you. And that's all that matters.

[video] 19:54 Yeah, can I ask you about St. Augustine of Hippo? I assume you're familiar with his work, Sixth Century. You know, the guy who tells us his original sin and really makes it a thing in the Christian world. He's more of a Latin group of people, but that's fine. Keep going. He says we're naturally predisposed towards lying, cheating, stealing. In the atheistic tradition as well, Thomas Hobbes, English philosopher, 17th century. He says our fundamental nature is a war of every man against every man, and life will be nasty, brutal, and short. That's our natures, right? He's an apex predator. But we know that we shouldn't lie, cheat, steal, and we shouldn't just engage in wars, even though that's in our nature.

20:21 It's so contradictory what he said. He said that we know that we shouldn't do it, but that's not you knowing that, that's you believing that. What you know is what is innate, inborn, and your nature is innate. You were born the way you are, and that's how you will die, and that will never change. but you can absorb beliefs from other people throughout your life, which is what happened to him. And then you can start believing that your nature is wrong. That's what religions are all about. They brainwash you to believe that your nature is sinful and bad, or maybe even evil, it comes from the devil. And then they will make you believe that going against your nature is the right way to live.

21:19 And if you do that, then you will go to heaven. It's the perfect way to control people. It was really a great idea from the people who wanted to enslave millions of people at once. That way they didn't have to be afraid of anybody rebelling because it would be wrong to do that in their brainwashed minds. Point being, he is somebody who believes that our nature is bad, which is why we should go against it. And if we do that, then we will be good citizens. We can be lovely weekends.

[video] 22:03 and all of that we've been doing it for a long time so the christian view we should transcend that but the main thing is even if you didn't buy transcend that as if you can buy these like vegan christian arguments and you thought again we spoke earlier god creates the world perfectly vegetarian it'll be vegetarian at the end of time so i think that's a really strong argument i also think that angels mistreating humans is bad i'm sure you'd agree so it would translate there i think those are two reasons but even with those you'd go okay it doesn't seem like the naturalist argument gets you there either Could I just argue, though, that there's kind of a false dichotomy. It's like, unless you're a billionaire, you're impoverished. And what I'm saying is that I think people are sort of on a spectrum of that sort of wellness virtue sort of line. And so, you know, I think we're still winning the war here against, let's say, unnecessary suffering or triviality. I think pretty much... It's unnecessary, not just for the animals as well, right? We're stewards of the earth.

22:50 So when you've got 91% of all deforestation because of the cattle industry or because of animal agriculture, when 80 to 90... And he told you that it's because they grow these seeds and the soybeans are among those seeds because of the oil. For example, they don't grow them to feed the cattle specifically. they actually mostly grow them for these vegan foods and a lot of junk food also, all the processed food out there. But the point is that It's not as if they grow them to feed all of the animals and then we eat the meat. That's not the case. They only give them the waste products, the leftover garbage, which the animals will eat, of course, because they want to eat something.

[video] 23:38 We've evolved to become better hunters. Our entire existence as human species has been around eating meat. And for you to just say all of a sudden, There's no such thing as a naturalistic fallacy. Everything that is natural is good for you. Obviously, there's no exceptions.

24:12 by natural selection dictates that we should do that says descriptively we can give an explanation for it that doesn't mean we should do that thing okay that's exactly what it means what else is it supposed to mean do you believe that your nature is random there's some good things and some bad things and we need these man-made ideas morals ethics to understand what is right and wrong? Or is it maybe that your whole nature is completely right and that you were brainwashed by religions to believe that all of it or some of it is wrong? What is more likely? Is your whole body just wrong? Or are the ideas which were implanted in your mind by other people who want to control you wrong?

[video] 25:06 Well, here's another question. We've engaged in how many wars? True. And we shouldn't keep doing that, agree? We shouldn't. We shouldn't. And why shouldn't we do that? I don't know if you should bring this one up right now. Answer, why shouldn't we do that? Why shouldn't we engage in war? Because it's killing our own people. But only humans count? There's many findings, which you can choose to believe or not, of so-called tribes, aboriginal people, natural people essentially,

25:53 who had wars, you could call them mini wars, simply fights with each other. And there's lots of mass graves all over the earth. Why is it so? It's pretty easy to figure out is already that's the one that's alive.

[video] 26:11 It's not just about being human. It's about being a living human, the conscious human or the non-conscious human, the one that can feel pain and pleasure. The one that's got freedom of the will, the one that's got projects, long life to live. It's not just the fact that they're human. There are lots of intrinsic values to being a human being that are comparable to the non-human. Absolutely.

26:24 It's very clear what's going on here. People nowadays grow up removed from nature. It's not as if you can actually remove somebody from nature, seeing as it's the base, the root of this reality, but you can try to suppress it. And that's what's going on. You can try to brainwash somebody through religions, morals, ethics, it's all the same. and make them believe that their nature is wrong and evil. You can try to cut down the plants over and over again so that they don't come out of the concrete. You can create so-called shops with artificial foods, which people who are removed from nature will eat because they don't know what real food is. You can create an artificial environment. That's my point.

27:24 You can do all of this, but your nature will never change. The purpose of your life, the meaning behind everything, what you're supposed to do in this life cannot change. It's impossible. It doesn't matter what humans think of. And that's what we are talking about. Man-made ideas. Humans thought of all of this to control people. It's simply very easy to control people who believe that their nature is evil, obviously. It's the best way. If you would believe that your nature is correct, then you would do what you're naturally supposed to and then you know what would happen. But as long as people believe that it's wrong, they will of course not do it for many different reasons. Usually all of these reasons are based on fear.

28:25 It could be the fear of hell. It could be the fear of what other people will think of you or do to you, but that's usually the base of it because without fear, you would simply do what you want to do. And if this would happen, nobody would think of something such as veganism. And even if somebody would think of it, nobody would follow it because Only if you believe that suffering, death and all of that is bad, you can fall for veganism. Once you snap out of that and you see a reality for what it is, you actually use your senses, you will understand exactly what this reality is about. And it's beautiful. Nature is a Everything. There's nothing better. It is life itself.

29:23 And it is exactly the way it's supposed to be. Thanks for watching.