Ex-Vegan (15 Years): Veganism Is Not Sustainable - It's a "Cleanse," Not Nourishing

Watch on YouTube · 2018-08-22 · 42 min

[video] 0:00 I'm Shakaya. I'm in my 50s. I live in Canada. I live with my soulmate of 21 years and my two boys. And about 17 years ago, I was invited, I received an invitation to go to this raw party. I didn't know what it was. And David Wolf was the speaker and I didn't know who he was. And when I got there, I have to say like the vibe was so fun. Like the girls all looked very beautiful and sexy and The guys looked pretty fit and virile, and they were doing hand drumming, and it was just so enchanting to me that I was like, wow, whatever this is, sign me up. So I was talking to everybody, and it was all about this raw vegan movement, and then he spoke, and I ended up buying his book, and I really loved it because it was really empowering. It was sort of outside of the box, and

[video] 0:55 I've always been an alternative sort of freedom seeker kind of person and all the people I met that night, they were very conscious and open and just seemed like my kind of crowd. So, I decided there and then, that's it, I'm doing this. And so, I went home and my boys were very young. And my husband, not on board at all, Italian, but I was very determined. I felt like the more that I learned about it, the more it seemed like the ultimate. So I was unschooling my kids at home, and I thought, well, this is a wonderful complement to what I'm doing already. And it was a little tough switching everyone over. But like I said, I really felt motivated because I thought it was going to lead us to the promised land.

[video] 1:49 And a lot of times people went to bed hungry because my recipes just failed epically. But I have to say, the first year was pretty glorious. It just felt like a natural high. And then what started to happen was one of my children started to complain a lot of leg pain. And I thought it was just growing pains. And I would massage his legs at night, and then he'd wake up crying, and I'd massage his legs for an hour. And he also developed really itchy, dry skin on his legs. And I asked around in the raw community. I kind of knew everybody at that point because, just to backtrack a little bit, I had been invited to write on a blog called Raw Mom. And for some reason, my blog became so successful.

[video] 2:46 It was driving so much traffic to the site that they asked me to kind of turn that blog into a full-fledged website, which I did. And then I ended up creating the very first Raw Mom Summit. So I interviewed people like David Wolf and Dr. Doug Graham and Shazi and just all the heavy hitters in the raw movement. So I knew everybody, so I got like 20,000 people, I think 12,000 to the first event, and then I did it again the next year, got 22,000, and it just grew, and I became sort of known, and so I asked everyone, Dr. Brian Clement, like just everyone, you know, my son doesn't seem to be thriving, the other one is, but I don't know what's going on, and I'm really worried, and they all basically said, you know, it's probably just detox, just sort of push through it. You should be getting everything on a vegan diet. He's fine, probably.

[video] 3:47 And, you know, that's scary when you're a mom of young children and it seems like someone's not doing as well. So, I did continue with it for a few more months, just hoping, I guess, that it would clear up, but it didn't. So, finally, it was Shazi. Well, first, David Wolf said, you know, try some raw milk. And I was like, really? I thought you can get everything on a vegan diet. And he was like, well, just try this. And Shazzy agreed. And Shazzy said maybe even some raw eggs. So I did the raw milk. And then I noticed within days he stopped scratching. And then within a couple of weeks, it's like he was kind of back to normal. And that really should have been a big wake-up call, I guess, but I really felt so into this, you know, and I really felt like I really bought into a lot of this idea of you're toxic and you've got to cleanse.

[video] 4:41 And I know we do live in a toxic world, a toxic environment, but to be constantly cleansing and also to be cleansing and detoxing kids, just doesn't make sense now that I think about it but at the time this was all so new and exciting and I really did believe it it's like you can read studies on both sides and at first I was and then I guess through confirmation bias you start to just really attract and gravitate to what you want to believe so I just continued with it and There were times, to be perfectly honest, I couldn't maintain it for myself. I would end up cheating, and I always would cheat with the same thing, which was raw fish. I am very much into the raw still, but obviously not the veganism.

[video] 5:38 And so I would eat some raw fish, and I would feel really, really guilty about it, but I would notice that I would feel better. I would have this instant boost. Um, a couple of years in April 23rd, 2010, I ended up sort of saying publicly on Facebook that, you know, cause I was pretty well known as the raw mom that, you know, one of my sons wasn't really thriving. I've been sort of cheating and experimenting with a couple of things here and there. And I really am questioning everything. And, um, I had been sort of

[video] 6:16 disassociated with some of the vegan groups and they just didn't invite me to speak at their events anymore after this announcement and some people were just a little bit rude to me, but most people were quite loving about the whole thing that I was just sharing my experience and I told them I'm going to be, you know, sneaking some raw liver and my kids smoothies and some raw eggs and I'm doing that for myself. And when I say I was doing that, I would do it like once a month. My intention was to do it once a week, but I really couldn't bring myself to do that. So it was more like once a month, and then it became once a season. And then again, I would just stop it and go another six months or a year or two years vegan. And I would go these long stretches of 100%, and then I would find myself, you know, your body just sort of tells you you need something, and I'd feel horrible about it.

[video] 7:14 But there I would be eating some sashimi and feeling better and then getting back on the bandwagon. So that was sort of the journey up until about three years ago. I hit a wall. I got extremely sick. I was, you know, just turning 50. I guess I was going through menopause. I had a cyst on my ovary. And I thought maybe that's why I was so sick. But I had had a cyst on my ovary when I was 19 and, you know, grapefruit size. And I had cleared it up with Chinese herbs at the time. So I thought, oh, I'll just do that again. But I tried everything for about a year, juicing. And I've done a lot of water fasts. And I was a colon hydrotherapist at one point. And so I was doing colonics. And I even got into dry fasting. I was doing everything I could.

[video] 8:11 to heal this cyst because I was seriously getting very, very sick. I mean, to the point where my husband had to carry me to the bathroom and actually feed me. I lost all my ATP. I couldn't even open my eyes sometimes and talk. I remember my older son who was in his last year of high school saying, like, should I quit school and start working for the family because you're so sick? It was just a really, really scary time, and we didn't know what was wrong. There were about six times I was hospitalized where, out of the blue, I would go into major tachycardia. If you know what that is, it's just rapid heartbeat, and I would also lose complete ability to almost even open my eyes. I could barely open my eyes. I could barely talk. I could just whisper, and my friend who's a nurse, Jane, came over one night because We needed some help.

[video] 9:11 I was lying on the couch here, actually, and my husband couldn't get me to the toilet by himself. I know this is just so embarrassing, but this is the truth. I was so completely wiped out. And so she came over to help. She's a nurse. And she really thought I was dying. And every time we went to the hospital, they were like, I don't know what's wrong. Like, the tachycardia would calm down. and they would send me home, and I remember one doctor just saying, you know, go for walks, you're fine, it's all in your mind, and I was like, you know, I've done martial arts for a lot of my life, I'm an extremely active person, I'm not faking this, I can't move, without my husband helping me, I couldn't do anything. This went on and off for nine months, but mostly on, I was pretty much bedridden, and

[video] 10:02 I had gotten the surgery for the cyst, finally, because I had to admit my fasting and everything I was doing wasn't working, my juicing, so the surgery, which took all of five minutes, which I wish I'd have known, I would have done it so much earlier, but I thought I'd feel so much better after that, but no, this continued for another six months. So, I really was scared, I really thought, Something was majorly wrong, but they could never find anything. So I started to slowly get better, and it's been almost three years. I would say I'm about 90%, 95% well, and I would say up until about almost four months ago, I was only about 80%, 85% better. And in the last four months, I started adding in some animal products, and I have just boosted. Like, I've not... 100% yet, but I am feeling better than I have felt in years.

[video] 11:03 And I was gonna say something about the one.

11:10 So you start getting the animal products four months ago. That's when you quit veganism. Or what do you mean?

[video] 11:16 Yes, that's exactly right. Well, what happened? That's what I was gonna say how, how I actually quit veganism. And even when I was eating some animal flesh, like the raw fish, I always thought, you know, the ultimate is to go vegan and I will get there, I will get back there, but I'm just going to eat a meal or two and eventually I won't have to do this. So, for me to have quit four months ago, it's like an experiment I'm doing, but I feel like because I've gotten such amazing results that I didn't even expect, I don't see why I would ever go back unless things shift. But what happened was I got, about a year ago, a toothache, went to the dentist, and I'd had quite a few cavities over the years, which really shocked me, because I don't eat a lot of sugar. Although, of course, when you're vegan and raw, you're eating a lot of sugar, and you don't even realize it.

[video] 12:12 You're not eating processed sugar, but you're eating fruits and starchy vegetables, and it all adds up. I got this cavity, I was doing my oil pulling and doing everything, fasting again a lot, and I couldn't budge it, and he kept saying, you know, it's infected, you're going to have to get it removed. So I tried everything, and I finally got it out about five months ago, four and a half months ago, and that's when everything, it's like a light bulb went off. When he took out my tooth, it was black. The whole thing was so rotten and so black, and I was like, This is insane. I mean, I take such good care of my teeth. I take exquisite care of my diet. How do I have all these problems? And I asked the dental hygienist who would clean my teeth over the years. I go every once every three years or so for a checkup and to clean my teeth.

[video] 13:10 And she always looks so vibrant and her beautiful teeth. And so I asked her, what do you eat? What's your diet like? And she said, meat, dairy, nothing special. Just thought, wow, you know, I would give anything to have teeth like that. And over the years, I had twice broken my teeth eating a salad on a pit of an olive that I thought I had gotten them all, and obviously I didn't. And every time I broke my tooth, which happened a couple times, I thought, this is really strange. If your teeth are that weak and crumbly, you know, how are my bones doing? And I just thought, I don't know why this is happening to me. And, yeah, I think, if anything, it always made me want to go further with it and try harder. And I used to feel that, you know, maybe I'm failing the diet. And I explain it like it's almost like a love affair that you feel this betrayal.

[video] 14:10 Because, I mean, I was so dedicated, I was so loyal, I was so into it. And I, at first, was getting results. I felt very vibrant. And then all these little things, even at one point, my hair started falling out and I thought, gosh, you know, I really, it sounds superficial when your hair's falling out or your skin doesn't look as nice, but I really believe those are like the canary in the coal mine kind of giving you warnings. It's like first the body whispers and then if you don't listen, you get a two by four over the head. And So my hair was sort of falling out, and then, that wasn't bad enough, but my hair's naturally curly or naturally frizzy, and yet, what I noticed was my hair was even more frizzy than usual. It was like a Brylo pad, like an SOS pad.

[video] 15:09 And I was like, what is going on? My hair is so dry. And just little things like that, and then the teeth, and then I guess I really hit rock bottom this winter. I had this tooth problem, but I hadn't gotten it out yet. My boys had just left home for university, and I went into this terrible dark depression, and my insomnia, which I've had all along, I've never been able to budge my insomnia, and I thought for sure eating such a clean diet, I would like definitely heal that problem, but it got worse. It was so bad that I was suicidally like, so depressed. I ended up seeing a therapist during the winter just saying, you know, I know my boys have left, I know that's what's really, you know, the cause, but it's also that I can't sleep. And I mean, when I say I have insomnia and I can't sleep, I mean it's very bad. I would sleep about 10 hours a week.

[video] 16:06 I would go for days and not sleep, not even a drop, not even a nap here or there. I just, and my kids knew that, my husband, my friends, everybody knows, and I've shared about that in my community over the years, and blogs, and other podcasts, and always asking for help, but just always feeling like doctors can't help me, I've got to find a way myself, and I'm going to start with diet, and I'm sweating a lot. It's very hot where I live, it's summertime here, and it's either really, really freezing cold, or it's really hot. I live in a snow belt, so we have really extreme temperatures, so I'm going to be sweating. glowing, as we women say. So, yeah, after the depression, and then I got the tooth out, and it was black, and I was so embarrassed, I was like, gosh, you know, am I healthy or am I not?

[video] 16:58 Like, you know, mentally I don't feel well, physically I don't feel strong, my teeth are crumbling and rotting, I mean, what is it going to take for me to realize something's not right in Kansas? Something's wrong. So, I said, well, What am I going to do? I've always believed that it's not all about diet. There's other protocols, like grounding out in nature, and I do spend a lot of time in nature, and I have a pretty stress-free lifestyle, and good sleep hygiene doesn't seem to help, but I seem to be doing a lot of the things. The only thing I wasn't doing was maybe eating some meat. And of course, I always thought I would never go back to that. I mean, I've actually been a vegetarian since I was 13, so going vegan wasn't that much of a leap for me. And I always thought for sure I would stay vegan.

[video] 17:55 But after the tooth and the depression this year, I was ready to try anything. So I actually started with something that I thought maybe I could show you and your viewers if you want, which is... I went to the farm, I would always go to the farmer's markets for my veggies, and now I started going for these duck eggs. And they're, this one's not blue, a lot of them are blue, but I just normally, like, I started putting it in a glass and drinking it, which was really crazy. Something I wouldn't mind showing you too is, I don't know if anyone's seen these. I hadn't seen these, but when I started this whole, you know, breaking vegan thing, I started with the eggs, and so I got these beautiful, I don't know if you can see them, quail eggs.

[video] 18:52 They're beautiful colors, so I'm going to put one of those in, and that's how I started, was just drinking raw eggs. Like I said, I'm still very raw, and... I think if I cook the eggs, it sort of denatures them. So as much as I had a mental resistance to doing this, I remember the first time I downed the egg, I honestly felt better right away. I was like, my cells, everything was sort of singing, and I was kind of intrigued by that. And so cheers.

19:40 It's actually very common among vegans that they automatically feel better after the first day if it's raw.

[video] 19:47 Yeah, I think when you're so depleted, you're going to notice it right away. And I've obviously been very depleted. Dr. Carolyn Dean described it to me as, you know, I said to her, why am I so sick? Like, especially when I crashed three years ago, I said, I'm doing all the right things with my diet. And she just said, well, you know, You can go so long on a vegan diet, and people can only go so long depending on how much stores they've built up, animal fats and proteins and whatever it is. And obviously, not having the animals since I was 13, became vegetarian and then went vegan, I didn't have a lot of stores. So when I hit the wall, I think I was honestly dying. I thought I was dying.

[video] 20:37 she said you know you can only go so long it's it's sort of inevitable and I thought gosh I know quite a few vegans who were doing okay but you know you never know behind the scenes and you never really know what they're little like I said the canaries in the coal mine the warnings the whispers you don't know really what they're going through or it could just be that they have got a good storage base you know so in my case I was really, really depleted, so just eating the raw eggs, I feel amazing. I wouldn't do it otherwise. If there was any way that I could not do it, I wouldn't, and that's because I think I've been sort of artificially conditioned to think that this is wrong, and there's still a part of me that, you know, buys into that, but I really am starting to believe that that's just my conditioning, that's just

[video] 21:32 The way the powers that be want us to think that plant-based is very virtuous and eating animals is evil.

[video] 21:41 I don't know if people are into conspiracy theories, but it feels like it's a very easy way to control the population by making them sick and weak and lethargic. I know when I was a vegan, I thought I'm outside of the box and outside of the system. And that's, I think, the appeal for a lot of people. Plus, a lot of people want to stop animal cruelty and animal suffering, and I'm certainly for all that. But let's be real. There's a huge difference between factory farming and raising animals on a homestead or a family farm and giving them death in a humane way. so that you can live, and so that you can eat, and is that not the cycle of life? And we're so conditioned now, through all kinds of means, to just think that animals are our buddies and our friends. And yes, we can love animals, and I think we really should treat them properly.

[video] 22:41 And if anything, this sounds crazy to a lot of vegans, but I really have come to love animals even more now, if that's possible. I always did. but now I just feel so grateful for their sustenance, for what they provide for us, and I know some people think that's crazy and evil, but if you hit a wall, like I hit a wall, where my poor family, what they went through, and what I went through, you know, I have compassion for animals, but I also want to have some compassion for myself, and I didn't for so long. It was always, you know, you know, the idealism, and I guess it caught up with me. Now, I have to say with clients and people that I have worked with over the years, I never was about raw, raw, raw, or even veganism. I was always about health, and I would always tell my clients, you've got to really feel into it. I don't recommend vegan for everyone.

[video] 23:38 It's something I choose, and I really strive for, but I don't promote it, per se, because I've never seen a culture, and I was a little bit nervous about, you know, being responsible for other people. And even with my children's diet, I would sometimes sneak in some raw eggs. I know that's crazy, but I just wanted to have a little insurance policy, just in case that was wrong, because I felt like I was one of the pioneers, and I was doing something that's relatively new in our history. So, I was hedging my bets a little bit here and there, but honestly, not enough. Not enough. And even though I My kids grew up really healthy and mentally. I mean, they're athletes. They're scholars. They're two of the loveliest human beings. They're very fun, and they're very funny. But honestly, they were hungry. I remember so many times when they would tell me, mom, we're hungry.

[video] 24:37 And I'd like, well, have more. Have avocado. Have some nuts. And they'd be like, I don't want that. And I would say stupid things now when I think. It upsets me, and I've actually even apologized. I'm not here to apologize for my diet to anyone, but I literally have apologized to my kids. I've told them, you know, there were times when you were hungry, and I would say things like, maybe you're just thirsty. You know, I read that in that book, Our Many Cries for Water, and how a lot of time we overeat and really we're just dehydrated. And also, like I said, I bought into this whole idea of,

[video] 25:15 you know, cleansing and fasting all the time, and I think when kids are growing, that's not a wise thing at all, and whenever they said they were hungry, I'd be like, you know, it's good to go to bed on an empty stomach, it's healthier for you, your body's going to run cleaner, and I truly believe this, and when I hear people say that veganism is child abuse, I have very mixed feelings about that, because I was doing that, and yet I was doing it with all the love and all the consciousness that I had. I had available at that time, and I put my children's well-being before anything, and that's why I was going to such extremes, but when I think of all these people coming up now, when I hear about a vegan mom, I really feel scared, I feel worried, I feel sad, and that's why I want to share this. I'm nervous to share this message, because I've had people

[video] 26:13 you know, be very dismayed and upset with me, disappointed. People in the community, obviously, there's a lot of people that I inspired with my recipe books and my lifestyle. And although I never promoted veganism per se, I always thought, well, I think most people are eating too much meat as it is. Everybody can pretty much agree with that. And couldn't we all just stand to eat more fruits and vegetables? That's sort of where I came from, that I wasn't going to push anyone raw or vegan, but let's just eat some more raw vegan foods. And that's sort of where I came from. So I don't feel like I turned anyone vegan. Even when my clients would ask me to turn them raw vegan, I said, no, that's not what I'm about. I just want you to listen to your body. But let's go a little more into that world. And it just was...

[video] 27:09 a very winding journey, and here I am, and I actually found your channel a couple months, I think it was about a month, a month and a half ago, I started seeing your ex-vegan videos, and I was like, oh my gosh, somebody understands what I'm going through. I was shocked, I'd never really talked openly other than to my family and friends, and some of my clients, I told them what I was doing, but I hadn't really thought of you know, going on YouTube and somebody had told me about you and that I should maybe share. And when I started listening to the stories of the ex-vegans, I was like, wow, you know, I feel a lot of those feelings. So it was very emotional. I didn't even know if I could bring myself to share this. But I've always been about transparency and healing. And my whole intention for sharing this is so that I may continue my healing and that

[video] 28:09 anyone else who might be confused or suffering or really requiring some healing or compassion. I'm just sharing this in hopes that it might help someone else as well.

28:24 Yes, what you said was interesting, because veganism, from my experience with everybody, is all about not listening to your body. And especially when it comes to kids, it's very tricky, because you should of course listen to them, but when you're in the mindset, when you don't listen to your own body, then you also don't listen to them. So I very much understand that. Also, what you said about not being able to open your eyes and laying in bed and not being able to talk, That may be interesting to you because I talked to an ex-vegan. She was vegan for over 20 years, except for some cheese every few months. And she went through exactly the same thing, literally. And she said that she was dying and she was also diagnosed with around five cancers at the time. So this is pretty much what happens to long term vegans.

[video] 29:13 It's shocking because we really do believe we are doing like the best thing ever. And, you know, speaking of the best thing ever, David Wolf used to always say, you know, the best day ever, the best day ever. And I remember one time I was going to ask him this question at a talk and then someone beat me to the punch and stood up and asked this question. And I was shocked at David's response. He just totally shot this guy down, which probably would have happened to me too if I'd asked it. I was so grateful the guy asked it. But he said, you know, here we are, we're vegans, we're ecologically minded, so why are we flying these superfoods all, you know, like the carbon footprint is so heavy, so high, and David Wilt just looked at him like he had two heads and was like, are you kidding me, dude?

[video] 29:59 Like, we have this technology and we have access to this, and I just thought that was a terrible answer, because it doesn't really make sense when you're trying to eat a holistic, natural diet, to be eating all these powders and all these things that are so exotic and come from faraway lands and are being shipped over, it really doesn't make sense. And so I thought about that. I've always tried to eat local, but I live in Canada and it's like snow practically six months of the year. So I thought, okay, I'll supplement with the superfoods. And yeah, without the superfoods, you could not. I mean, I think that's the only reason we have vegans today. You wouldn't be able to survive. I know you like to ask, you know, supplements. So I'll tell you, I was taking... Oh my gosh, spirulina, bee pollen. I was injecting myself with B12.

[video] 30:57 Those were the main things, but I would always be trying just there's always like E3 live, wheatgrass.

31:07 Sorry, I was just pointing to something. It's fine. Continue.

[video] 31:10 Oh, that's okay. And so yeah, I was just heavily into the supplements. And of course, It's very hard to get kids to eat spirulina, put it in their smoothies, and that would be like disgusting. So it's a really slippery slope. And how could it be the healthiest diet when there's no population that's ever sustained themselves generationally? This is really an experiment. And how I look at it now is I really think it's an amazing cleanse. I really do believe that's why I felt so good the first year and Even after that, you know, I would cheat, have some raw fish or some liver, and then I'd go back into it, and I really felt like it's cleansing, and I definitely needed cleansing because I grew up on the streets of Toronto. My mom died when I was 16 of a heart attack, and so when I have these heart things, it is really concerning.

[video] 32:06 She died at 48, and I'm 53 now, and so I grew up on junk. I couldn't even afford to feed myself. And so, I never really had a great diet to begin with. My mom being a single mother was very poor. And so, I just think it's crazy to, especially to experiment with your children's health the way I did. And I definitely regret that. Luckily, they don't hold it against me other than, yeah, we were hungry. I mean, I was in the kitchen so often.

[video] 32:42 so much, and I was making all these recipes, and I was constantly feeding them, and it really took over my whole life, and that's why I became the raw mom, and I became so well-known, because I was doing it anyway, so I thought, let's share it, and hopefully my journey will make other moms' journeys easier, because I'm going to learn these recipes, and I can teach them, and they don't have to go through that learning curve, so I thought it was a good trade-off, but I'm just so grateful that my kids were not damaged in any way, they're, like Landon's a scholar, he just won the athlete of the year award at his university, and Liam as well, like they're doing good, thank God, so I think other moms though, if the kids are really young, yeah, watch very closely for symptoms, I don't believe kids should be on a vegan diet, I think they need to be building, not cleansing, and I think vegan foods are cleansing, so that's my stand, and I'm I'm not here to tell anyone what to do.

[video] 33:43 I just really want to share my experience and hopefully people will, you know, they'll get out of this talk whatever they require and I'm just gonna trust that.

33:53 What about your vegan contacts and friends that you had and do you still have any contact and are they still vegan?

[video] 34:04 Well, the people that I know in the raw vegan community, there have been some ex-communicators. For example, Daniel Vitalis, his friend, and he's gone really paleo and primal. There's probably quite a few, but I think I kept more in touch with the vegans. This is very, very new for me to be on the other side now. My vegan friends, I don't know how they're going to feel, especially the more famous ones, whatever. I don't know if they're going to feel really upset with me, but I know Shazzy reached out to me. I recently did a Facebook Live sharing this, and she reached out saying, oh, you're beautiful and brave, and we love you, and she did receive a lot of backlash herself.

[video] 35:01 at one point, and I know Marcus and Cara, I don't know if they're going to speak to me, Tanya Sevasta, Dr. Clement, there's so many, I honestly don't know how they're going to feel, how they're going to take to this, or even if they care, because I was never 100% vegan, and I wasn't a big push for vegans, so I don't know if they really would care about my story, but we'll see who are the real people and we'll see. I remember when I was doing the Raw Moms Summit, I actually interviewed Marianne Williamson and Neal Donald Walsh, Byron Katie, some people who were, I thought, really positive people out in the world doing great things. They weren't raw or vegan, but I just wanted to inspire the raw moms and even though I had all these other vegan speakers like Angela Stokes and Matt Monarch, everybody.

[video] 35:58 I had these other people, and then I got criticized that not everyone that I was interviewing was raw vegan. They were attacking me constantly. I wasn't vegan enough, and my panel wasn't vegan enough, and I was like, I'm not just about that. It's not a religion to me. I'm interested in health, and I tried to get this point across, and I found people very, very, I'll just use the word rude and sometimes mean. You know, I noticed when I was watching your videos, like the ex-vegan, how well you listen, how present you are, and I've seen people who are just so narcissistic and so... They can't even do that. Like, I remember Marcus Rothkrantz, and I do love Marcus, and he does look amazingly healthy in person. Like, he does glow. He's one of the healthiest vegans I've ever seen, because there's so many who aren't. But he had this guy on, and this guy...

[video] 36:56 wife just had a baby, natural childbirth, and what did the husband do but talk and talk and talk about his wife's birth? She was just right there, and there's so many people that can't listen properly, and they're so self-absorbed, so I really appreciate it. That's one of the reasons I wanted to share on your platform, because I knew that I wasn't going to be constantly interrupted, and I wasn't going to be judged. But as far as other vegans, I don't know how they're going to feel. And I guess we'll see.

37:29 What do you think is the future of veganism? What's going to happen?

[video] 37:34 Well, I know what I would like to see happen. I'd really like to see people hear more of these videos and really contemplate this much deeper. But I don't think that's the case. I really feel like YouTube is like this virus, you know, especially among the young people that are so impressionable. A lot of the guys start out wanting to do bodybuilding and they find vegan gains and certain people and they go vegan and they're highly influenced. And unfortunately, those young kids, they don't have a lot of stores built up, reserves, so they are going to get sick eventually and eventually maybe they'll find your channel and eventually they will

[video] 38:20 you know they'll go through their journey and wake up just as I had to but I do really wonder about when you notice things like the food pyramid changing over the years becoming more plant-based and you know you actually made me aware of something that I was not aware of at all I saw I watched your ex vegan videos and then I happen to watch your video on the New World Order diet And I thought the title was very, you know, very intriguing and very funny because the CIA and different forces, they want you to be ashamed of, they want that term, oh, you're a conspiracy theorist. Like, they want you to feel ashamed of that. So you look at stuff like that and you think, oh, he's just a conspiracy theorist. Like, you know, another nut, whatever, nut case. So at first I kind of found you amusing. I'll be really honest. I really didn't know how to take you. But...

[video] 39:16 When I saw this part in it where you're showing animals that we think are not carnivores, but they're eating other animals, I was like, well, this is very interesting. How come I never saw that? I mean, we unschooled our kids, and they had no TV, and we were always out in nature, and the only TV they ever watched was National Geos. We had a whole library of Mother Earth stuff and Animal Kingdom, and I tell you, we never saw... Deers eating chicks and goats eating things, fish and chipmunks eating mice. We just certainly never saw that, so I thought that was really interesting. And also, I really do wonder about why is there this big push for veganism everywhere? Is it just to save the animals? And if that were the case, then why aren't we looking at how we are producing our animal foods? And sure, we can do it better.

[video] 40:17 It's not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and saying we shouldn't be eating meat, is it? Or is it really, you know, this is what we've always done, this is what our ancestors have done, and that's how we've gotten here and have thrived. And unfortunately, if people continue with veganism, I mean, isn't it one in three couples already that are having infertility problems? And I know some people will say that's on the standard American diet, and yes, the standard American diet is shit. But I'm not talking about that, and I don't think you are talking about that. I'm talking about a natural diet with natural foods for humans. And there's so much controversy and question about what that is. And I know I thought it was fruits and vegetables for the longest time. I was told that, oh, there's so much protein in romaine and in these dark leafy greens. And so that's what I was filling my kids up with. And now I find out it just isn't so. My kids started eating a lot more meat, and now they

[video] 41:15 Once they left home, they do whatever they want, but even three years ago, I couldn't even cook for myself. They were cooking for me, and I was eating what they were making, and they were eating what they wanted. They started eating more meat, of course, and I was getting some scrambled eggs and pasta and things. I just feel like there's this push from the top down, and Is it to weaken everyone and control everyone? And we think we're the empowered ones. I think vegans, just like that first party with David Wolf, everyone seemed like creatives and visionaries. And yet, maybe we're all really being duped because our ancestors certainly weren't vegan. And there's actually nothing wrong with hunting and eating a natural diet for humans, which is animals. That's what we would have eaten in nature. Also, one of your videos I thought was fascinating about

[video] 42:10 know the fruits and vegetables that we are consuming even if they're organic unless they're wild and even in the wild they're not going to be the same as these highly cultivated highly man-made fruits and vegetables so there's a lot to be looked at and i think that your channel is exposing some of the unfortunately hidden holes in veganism all right thank you Thank you. Thank you very much, Gaddis.