Sv3rige vs. Vegan Gains Debate

Watch on YouTube · 2019-05-13 · 124 min

[video] 0:00 Okay, and we are live. So right now I am joined with Sverrage. So we discussed this through email. The debate is just going to revolve around which diet is healthier, Sverrage's raw meat diet or a vegan diet. So basically, I think overall, you know, a plant based diet approach is just healthier to a meat based diet approach. And I think the best place to start is with the most common cause of death. Heart disease. So a typical issue with meat-based dieting, you're getting a lot of saturated fat and cholesterol, and that drives up your serum cholesterol score, both your total cholesterol and LDL. So right here, paper association between plant-based diet and plasma lipids, a systematic review and meta-analysis.

[video] 0:53 So if you just go down to the study findings, the conclusions, plant-based diets are associated with decreased total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, but not with decreased triglycerides. So you do see that plant-based diets are associated with lower LDL cholesterol, and that's because typically they're lower in saturated fat and obviously free of cholesterol. So this is important. Let me go to the paper. So this is important because low density lipoproteins have a direct causal relationship with heart disease. So this is basically the best, most comprehensive paper I've come across. This is a consensus statement from the European Atherosclerosis Society consensus panel. So basically what they looked at.

[video] 1:46 was the totality of evidence from genetic studies, prospective epidemiological cohort studies, Mendelian randomization studies, and randomized trials of LDL-lowering therapies. So if you scroll down a little bit more... Let's see, where does this start?

[video] 2:34 And this effect appears to increase with increasing duration of exposure to LDL-C. So essentially, a systematic review and meta-analysis of...

[video] 2:48 Over 200 meta-analyses of prospective data, clinical studies, randomized trials, genetic studies, it all shows that elevated LDL plays a causal role in heart disease risk. And obviously, plant-based diets, they tend to be low in saturated fat and cholesterol. They tend to lower your serum cholesterol. So therefore they are associated with a low risk of heart disease. And, uh, I can say, I can show like results from the Adventist cohorts where again, vegans had the lowest risk of, uh, atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. So that's one of the reasons that's the main reason I'd recommend a vegan or plant-based diet.

3:29 All right. Cool. Yeah. Hi everybody. Did you know that the main purpose of LDL is to carry energy to the cells?

[video] 3:39 Okay, I can agree with that. LDL has a lot of purposes in the body. Carrying energy, it makes up cell membranes, a lot of different things. The issue is there's a certain amount that you want to have in circulation. So once you go above a certain amount, that's where problems begin.

4:05 All right, so this is what you want to talk about, because I want to talk about something completely else. Because obviously, I'm not going to read hundreds of studies right now. And we're not going to get anywhere if you just give studies to each other, because you know that I can't go and read it right now. So I respect what you showed, but I could only possibly read it after the debate. So it's kind of useless.

[video] 4:32 Okay, well, fair enough, but did you actually have an argument as to why you think cholesterol is not a risk factor for heart disease? This is what you want to talk about? Well, yeah, that's one of the things I wanted to talk about. Like, I mean, health is a broad topic, so, you know, we can cover heart disease, diabetes, cancer, just mortality, aging in general. So I just wanted to start off with, you know, discussion on heart disease. and one of the principal risk factors of heart disease because it's the leading cause of death worldwide. So if you can reduce your risk of heart disease, you massively reduce your risk of dying. So that's one of the most relevant things to talk about if we're gonna discuss what's healthier, a vegan or a raw meat-based diet.

5:18 Yeah, that's all fine. It's just that I have a video, for example, which is called saturated fat is optimal for health, is the key to optimal health, where it proves, and that's also compiled with many studies, that the higher cholesterol, the lower your risk for heart disease and the higher your longevity. So just interchanging studies right now is not going to get us anywhere.

[video] 5:43 OK, well, I will just say that is demonstrably false for a few reasons. So again, let me just turn on screen share. Whoops, that's the wrong one. OK, so again, this consensus paper from the European Atherosclerosis Society, they went through meta-analyses of Mendelian randomization studies. So what Mendelian randomization studies are is they look at a set of different genes that people have. And some people have gene mutations that significantly lower their serum cholesterol. So some people, their cholesterol is low, not because of any dietary changes or exercise or any kind of lifestyle factors. They tend to have low cholesterol just because of their genes.

[video] 6:37 So when you compare people who have genetically low cholesterol to people who genetically have normal cholesterol, the people with genetically low cholesterol avoid heart disease and they tend to live longer than people who who basically have normal cholesterol genes, so to speak. So no, if you take a look at basically the best research available on this topic, low LDL, regardless of the cause, whether it's from genetic factors, dietary, lifestyle related factors, you avoid disease and death.

7:12 Right, I get what you're saying, and I've researched and I've found otherwise. My point is that we're just not going to get anywhere with this.

[video] 7:18 Okay, well, Sveric, I'd actually like to see the research. If you have a video on the topic, why don't you just pull up some of the research from that video?

7:26 All right, sure. Do you want me to link it to you?

[video] 7:30 Sure, I can.

7:32 Also, in the meantime, while I'm searching, do you know what Smith-Limley-Alpert syndrome is?

[video] 7:37 Yes, I'm well aware. I've actually done a video on that topic.

7:41 Right, so what would you do about those people? Would you want them to die for the animals, or would you feed them animal foods? Because they can't create any cholesterol at all. They would die without animal foods.

[video] 7:53 OK, so for one thing, they can create cholesterol. It's just that their cholesterol production is massively inhibited because they're missing I forget the, it's a long wordy name, but they're basically missing an enzyme that's required in one of the steps to produce cholesterol. So they can still produce cholesterol, but it's severely inhibited. Some people with Smith-Lemley-Opitz syndrome actually have normal cholesterol levels, cholesterol levels that are in the normal range, even though it tends to be lower.

[video] 8:25 So if you actually take a look at the research on Smith-Lemley-Opitz syndrome, Um, most of the researchers actually think the neurological issues, a lot of the health problems caused by Smith-Lemley obits, it's a buildup of some of the esters involved in the creation of cholesterol. Some of these esters can build up to thousands of times, you know, in a concentration that's thousands of times higher than normal. And, uh, that can have like a toxic effect on, um, basically your brain, certain parts of your body. So one of the methods to treating Smith-Limley-Opitz is actually to administer cholesterol-lowering medication because cholesterol-lowering medication, it reduces the buildup of these esters. And that actually improves symptoms of Smith-Limley-Opitz.

9:15 Are you denying that there's people who can create any cholesterol at all? Are you saying that all of them can create a little bit?

[video] 9:23 As far as I know, all of them can create cholesterol just to a limited degree. But you should also know most people who have Smith-Lemley opiates die before they're even born. Possibly there are some that their cholesterol synthesis is so massively inhibited that they just end up dying very, very early on. But like I said, Smith-Limley opiates, it doesn't seem to, like the disease, it seems to have more of a... the buildup of these esters that are responsible for the creation of cholesterol, that seems to be a bigger problem than just the lack of cholesterol itself. Because again, you can find people with Smith-Lemley-Opet syndrome who have cholesterol levels in the normal range. Actually, let me see if I can go back. I didn't prepare to discuss this exact topic, but let me see if I can find a bit of research here for you.

[video] 10:23 So did you have anything to say to that?

10:27 It's just going to take a while for me to read it. I don't think we're going to get anywhere far in this whole debate if we're just going to be reading stuff now.

10:36 My whole point is that there are people who can create cholesterol, and they do require animal foods because of that, because you can't have such super low cholesterol, even if you can create a tiny bit.

10:52 So my whole question is, do you not care about them? Do you not care about their human health?

[video] 11:00 OK, well, again, there are actually ways to treat Smith-Lemley opiates without actually feeding them animal foods. And one of the most effective treatments is to give cholesterol-lowering medication, even though that's... Sorry?

11:13 Where's the logic? OK, well, the logic is... My whole point is that they should have healthy... If you're talking about LDL or just cholesterol levels... Sorry? They should have healthy cholesterol levels. You can't have a level of 10 cholesterol and be healthy or have no cholesterol at all because you would just simply die. You couldn't even make cells without cholesterol.

[video] 11:38 Okay, so Sverig, again, people with Smith-Limley opiates, they can produce cholesterol. It's just that the cholesterol production is severely limited. Now, obviously, in some circumstances at least, the limitation they have with cholesterol production, it definitely would cause some health issues. But the principal issue with Smith-Limley opiates appears to be the buildup of sterols. Sorry, I misused the term. I said... I said something else. So there's a buildup of these sterols that are used to produce cholesterol. So I'll just, I'll reference, sorry, I'll just screen share again. So this is a paper on Smith-Limley-Opitz. So when you look at research on Smith-Limley-Opitz, you'll notice that it's typically referred to a sterol disorder. Not a disorder with cholesterol synthesis or like a low cholesterol disorder.

[video] 12:38 It's typically referred to as a sterile disorder because the lack of this enzyme. So I think it's called DHC. I think that's the enzyme. So the lack of this enzyme causes a buildup of these sterols that are sometimes thousands of times higher than they would normally be, and that seems to be causing some of the issues. So this is a review, and they review some of the treatments for Smith-Lemley obits. And they actually use statin treatment in the treatment of smithilim and the opiates. So statins are a cholesterol-lowering medication. So what these cholesterol-lowering medications do is they reduce the buildup of these sterols, which in high doses seem to be toxic and cause some of the issues with smithilim and the opiates disease. So they do use cholesterol therapy.

[video] 13:37 So you can either give people dietary cholesterol and there are actually cholesterol supplements that happen to be vegan. There are also bile acid supplements and there's other like medical therapies.

13:48 Wait, wait, where do you get cholesterol as a Where would you get it? It comes from animals. It's an animal fat, pretty much.

[video] 13:56 You can actually make a cholesterol supplement that is vegan. From where? What's the source? I'm not sure how it's made, but there is actually a cholesterol supplement that is vegan.

14:07 It's an animal lipid. There is no such thing. Why do you lie?

[video] 14:10 I'm not lying. No. No, look.

14:12 This is the same thing as the last debate. You have no source for anything you say. You're simply lying.

[video] 14:20 No, no. Look, I've seen you make this claim about vitamin A, like vitamin A. Yeah, it's an animal vitamin. Only animals have it, but you can synthesize it.

14:29 That's why there are ways to get into that. But I'm talking specifically about that right now. It's an animal lipid. How where are you going to get it from a plant?

[video] 14:39 I'm not entirely sure how it's made, but you don't know. You don't know what you're talking about. Well, no, I don't know how they synthesize cholesterol, but I do know they make vegan cholesterol supplements. For Smith-Lemley opiates.

14:56 It's an animal lipid, Richard. It's not vegan. Okay.

[video] 15:01 Okay. I know that plants don't normally produce it on their own, but there are ways to synthesize it, you know, unnaturally.

15:11 Yeah, you have no proof, so let's just move on from this.

[video] 15:14 Okay, well, let me see if I can do a quick Google search. Vegan cholesterol supplement.

[video] 15:24 Okay, so they make cholesterol tablets. Let's see. That's interesting.

[video] 15:37 Okay. Wait a second. I think I might have found something here. Okay.

[video] 15:52 All right. Okay. So I don't know. I'm just looking online real quick. Apparently, you can synthesize cholesterol using phytosterols. It's some sort of chemical process.

16:05 Right. And you have no proof how it works. You have no idea how they make it. You have no idea if it even works in the human body. You have zero proof for any of it. So why do you even mention it?

[video] 16:15 What do you mean?

16:18 This is not something that's been studied. You're simply saying there is something. Well, yes, it has been. This is just an appeal to pharmaceutical companies. This is not proof.

[video] 16:26 That's not an appeal to pharmaceutical companies. I'm telling you, one of the main treatments for Smith-Lemley opiates is actually giving them cholesterol-lowering medication. And it's because it's a sterol disease. It's typically referred to as a sterol disease, not a disease that's caused by low serum cholesterol. Because again, there are people with Smith-Lemley opiates who have serum cholesterol in the normal range. The issue seems to be with the buildup of these sterols.

16:54 Yeah, I get it. That's not what I mean. I'm talking about cholesterol supplements, which are supposedly vegan.

[video] 17:00 Well, right.

17:01 So you're never going to prove this one.

[video] 17:03 Okay, well, wait. One of the treatments for Smith-Limley opiates is to give them high doses of cholesterol, like feed them eggs, butter, things like that. And another is to give them cholesterol supplements. And as far as I'm aware, these supplements are vegan. They're just made from different sterols that are... where they're introduced to a certain enzyme through some chemical process, and then it creates something that mimics animal cholesterol.

17:29 All right, exactly. It may mimic. That has nothing to do with actual animal lipids, so you would just prove that they don't work, because then there would be a study that would show that they work. Of course they don't work. Most supplements are fake.

[video] 17:43 Okay, well, they are used for the treatment of Smith-Lemley opiates, and I will grant you, the research I have seen, they don't seem to work quite as well as animal cholesterol.

17:57 Alright, anyway, this is going nowhere.

[video] 17:59 Okay, well, Sparage, you brought up Smith-Lemley opiates to make a point that low serum cholesterol causes disease, correct?

18:07 Yeah, do you also, have you ever seen my video about this? Do you know what the gene is that one out of 100 people have? It's called, in Eastern Europe, it's called 70-hydrocholesterol reductase. It's when you also can't make cholesterol or very little also.

[video] 18:24 Okay, well, you need two alleles, two of the alleles to actually have Smith-Lemley opiates. If you're a carrier, if you're a single allele carrier, this doesn't affect you.

18:36 Yeah, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about that specific gene in Eastern Europe. Yeah, I know.

[video] 18:40 I actually am aware. And I think the going theory is it has something to do with vitamin D synthesis, which is why in climates where it tends to be less sunny, it seems to be a little more prevalent. And it's actually theorized right now to be a cause of a lot of...

[video] 19:02 prenatal, or sorry, basically, what do you call it? Miscarriages. Smith-Lemley Opitz. So a lot of people think that because the frequency of this allele is so high in these populations, it's actually responsible for a lot of miscarriages. So a lot of people who have Smith-Lemley Opitz, they just die before birth. So that might be a reason for a lot of miscarriages. But the point you were making overall is that low cholesterol is associated with disease, correct? Is that why you brought up Smith-Lemley Opitz?

19:36 Yes, of course. But I'm talking about specific cases where people have mutated genes or just simply different genes who can create any or very little. I'm specifically talking now about the 70-hydrocholesterol reductase. And that's in Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe, it's one out of 30 people. So if they don't eat animal foods, they get seriously sick and die. My whole point is... Do you care about human beings, which everybody knows you don't? Or would you feed them animal foods to heal them? Or would you just simply watch them die, which is obviously what you would like?

[video] 20:10 OK, well, first of all, you sorry. Wait, can you enable slow mode in the chat? Slow mode? What's that? Yeah, it's in the setting where you're streaming. Where's your stream thing? Oh, let me go into my manager.

[video] 20:27 Sorry, it's just that there's 3,000 people in the chat. Oh, wow. Okay. Holy shit. Okay. Sorry about this. Just give me a second. Live streaming. So, it's in the dashboard.

[video] 20:44 You should have stayed in the dashboard of the live stream. What do you mean? No, that's not the dashboard. Okay, there's... And then press setting there. Where? Yeah, just go in the chat box there, and I think it should be.

[video] 20:59 Manage toggle, no. Scroll up. I can't see shit. Can you move it to the other side? I can't read anything. OK. Scroll up.

[video] 21:13 OK, I think you might have to do this live controller.

[video] 21:20 Go to Influence Settings.

[video] 21:25 OK, there's nothing there. What about advanced settings?

[video] 21:35 Enable slow mode. Oh, there. Thank you. OK, there you go. OK, so sorry about that. Where were we again? What were you asking?

21:46 Yeah, about Eastern Europe, 1 out of 30, the people can make very little to no cholesterol.

[video] 21:51 Do you care about what you feed them animal foods? Okay, 7-DHC, that's the gene that causes Smith-Limley obits. You need to carry two alleles. If you're a single allele carrier, that doesn't actually affect cholesterol metabolism.

22:11 Yes, so that's not my point. I'm just saying, if it does, what do you do about them?

[video] 22:15 OK, well, one of the treatments is to actually give cholesterol-lowering medications. That actually seems to be a more beneficial treatment strategy.

22:25 You just completely lost this one. Anybody sane can see that.

[video] 22:28 You're just completely ignoring it. OK, so look, I can share this again. Oh, wait. Did I? I think I might have.

[video] 22:41 Let me see. No, I think this is it. Or which... Okay, I might have changed...

[video] 22:50 Which one was it? Okay, I lost where I was. Oh, yeah, there we go. Statin therapy. So again, if you read this review, treatment of Smith-Lemley-Opitz syndrome and other sterile disorders, so it's referred to as a sterile disorder. So it's not referred to as a low cholesterol disorder. It's referred to as a sterile disorder because the primary issue with Smith-Lemley-Opitz seems to be a buildup of these steriles, not a lack of cholesterol. We don't need to lower this a hundred times. Sorry? Yeah, and one of the ways to, so, Sferage, one of the ways to treat smithilum leopits is with cholesterol-lowering medication, because it gets rid of the buildup of these sterols, and under bile acid supplements, there is dietary cholesterol therapy, so you can either, you can either give people actual cholesterol from animal foods, or give them a supplement.

[video] 23:48 And from the research I've read, the most effective treatment for Smith-Lumley obits is to give them cholesterol-lowering medication.

23:57 Okay, so you mentioned animal foods. So you do agree that there's people out there who do need to eat animal foods?

[video] 24:02 I wouldn't say need to, but people with Smith-Limley opiates, they do seem to, on average, get a benefit from eating some animal foods.

24:14 That's my whole point.

[video] 24:18 Did you check out the link? Where did you link it? In the Hangouts. Let me see.

[video] 24:28 OK. So you linked research in here?

24:33 So it's 1729. It's a video that I posted two years ago. And it's part of the presentation. It's simply presenting some studies compiled

24:49 Because you were talking before about the heart disease, and I was saying that I found out something else. So we have simply come to different conclusions from different research, which is my whole point is that you're not going to get anywhere with this anyway. But you can see one of the reasons why I got to my conclusion, if you want to. And then we can move on from that.

[video] 25:11 Okay, so I'm looking at your video, cholesterol and deaths. So this is on the y-axis, this is deaths per 100,000. On the x-axis, this is mean cholesterol, so that's millimoles per liter. Now, I'm not familiar with millimoles per liter. The thing is, this is just, like, this just isn't very great data to go on. This isn't like a randomized trial. This isn't like a prospective cohort. And if, like, how do I put this?

25:51 You were talking about epidemiological studies, which are pretty much zero meaning. No scientist even takes those serious. This is way better in that sense.

[video] 26:00 Okay, well, what do you mean? This is epidemiological.

26:03 Yeah, but well, yeah, it's both the same essentially then.

[video] 26:08 OK, so you're admitting that your own data is useless?

26:11 No, why? I'm just saying we're not going to get anywhere with this.

[video] 26:15 OK, well, it's Farage. This is a line of best fit, but look at the R squared value. It's 0.133. So basically, there's a 13% accuracy here for the line of best fit.

[video] 26:33 So this isn't great. This isn't great evidence, is my point.

26:38 Yes, right. Everything that is contrary to your belief is not great evidence.

[video] 26:41 No, no. So Sferage, if you...

26:44 But there is evidence. So it's just we are not going to get anywhere by showing studies.

[video] 26:48 Okay, well, no, Sferage, I can actually show you better evidence than this.

26:52 Yeah, but what's the point right now if I can't read it right now?

[video] 26:57 Okay, well you can read it right now. Do you want me to explain the issue with this chart? Sure. Okay, so right here you have an R squared value. So basically what this shows is the line of best fit, and it shows the accuracy of the line of best fit. So obviously if you want to draw a straight line through the data, you try to draw a straight line that hits as many data points as possible. So there's only about a, yeah, I think, yeah, the R squared is 0.18, so that's...

[video] 27:32 It's like, would that, yeah, that would be like, yeah, that's not like below 20% accuracy. So there's a below 20% accuracy for this line of best fit. So like the prediction that you can get from this data is just, very, very poor. So let me bring up another study here. So if you take a look at optimal low density lipoprotein, 50 to 70 milligrams per deciliter, lowers better than physiologically normal. So if you look at randomized trial data, let's go here. So I believe this is primary prevention.

[video] 28:16 So this is all data from different randomized trials where they used cholesterol lowering therapy to see if they could lower someone's cholesterol, decrease the risk of having a first heart attack. So if you take a look at the line of best fit here, The R-squared value is .9305, so there's over a 90% accuracy for this line. This is randomized trial data. It's considered more accurate data than a survey or a prospective study. The line of best fit here gives you over a 90% accuracy.

[video] 28:55 Based on better research, cholesterol-lowering therapy seems to reduce your risk of suffering a first heart attack.

[video] 29:06 So the data you linked, it just doesn't give you a very good prediction. It's a very, very low level of prediction.

29:15 All right. Do you want to move on from this? Because this was your point. Okay. Because like I said, I don't care about it. We're not going to get into it. Okay. Sure. Sure. All right. So can we agree, just like you last time when we had the debate two years ago, indirectly did that the vegan diet is the least nutritious diet there is?

[video] 29:37 Okay. Why is it the least nutritious?

29:40 You don't remember? Because it doesn't have over 50 nutrients. There is no other diet that doesn't have it.

[video] 29:47 Okay, why don't you name some of those nutrients?

29:50 You forgot, yeah? Okay, so there's vitamin A. It's an animal vitamin. There's two B6s, B12, D, which is an animal hormone. There's K2. Then there's four amino acids, taurine, creatine, carnosine, carnitine. There's conjugated linoleic acid, cholesterol, hemi-iron. There's three forms of actually really four of vitamin D also. So when you add all of that up, it's over 15 pretty much, so do we do you agree now okay uh some of those nutrients you just listed are not essential right i know you said this last time too that's not my point i'm saying as far as eating food do you agree which you just have to agree at this point that it's the least nutritious that there is because any diet as animal foods has these nutrients

[video] 30:44 Okay. Uh, no, I don't agree. Okay. So for one thing, okay. So for one thing, uh, some of the nutrients you listed just now, uh, they're not essential amino, sorry. They're not essential, uh, nutrients. So you listed, uh, Creatine, taurine, carnitine, cholesterol, I think maybe a few others, those aren't essential nutrients. So to claim that they're not in your diet, that's just a non-issue. Your own body synthesizes those nutrients. So I don't see how you could involve those nutrients in there.

31:20 First, they're essential for health. If you're saying that you can create them, that's a whole different topic. My point is that it is not found in plants. Therefore, a diet with animal foods is by definition more nutritious. You're going to look... like an idiot if you say no, because by definition, if you look at food, a vegan diet is the least nutritious diet there is. There is no diet that has less nutrients than a vegan diet because you only eat plants.

[video] 31:48 Okay, well, Sparage, there's a lot of different ways to look at what diet is more nutritious or not. Like, I mean, you can set up, like, look, you can set up a raw meat diet that's deficient in a lot of things. If you only eat skeletal muscle tissue from animals that, like chicken, yeah, you'd be deficient in a lot of things.

32:07 Name one thing.

[video] 32:08 Like, you'd probably end up being deficient in a lot of B vitamins, folate. You wouldn't be getting any fiber. Obviously, there's, you know, fiber would be low too, by the way, because it's a white meat.

32:21 Wait, wait. Are you saying that fiber is a nutrient?

[video] 32:24 Okay, well, no, it's not technically a nutrient.

32:27 Every B vitamin is found in every animal. Do you think that chickens function without B vitamins? You do understand that meat comes from animals, okay? So it's obviously found in meat because it's an animal.

[video] 32:42 Every animal has every B vitamin. Okay, well, Sverdj, my point is, just blanketly stating that one diet is less nutritious than another diet, it's a little misleading because, you know, depending on how you're eating, one diet that is generally more nutritious, you could set up a diet where it's actually less nutritious. Like, if you only ate skeletal muscle from chickens, you'd end up getting less iron than someone who's consuming a vegan diet that's really high in beans and legumes.

33:13 OK, there is no heme iron in plants. OK, somehow you're not understanding what I'm saying.

[video] 33:20 OK, well, heme iron isn't an essential nutrient. Iron is an essential nutrient.

33:24 It's very essential, but that's not my point.

[video] 33:26 OK, heme iron is not an essential nutrient. It's a form of iron.

33:28 OK, that's not my point right now. I'm saying you take any plant in the world you want, just any plants, and then look at the nutrients and compare it to a diet that has any meat. It will always have over 50 nutrients more. So do you not somehow understand this?

[video] 33:48 OK, Sferj, so are you saying that if you eat any meat at all, you will automatically get more nutrition than a vegan?

33:59 Right, over 50 nutrients that are only found in meat.

[video] 34:00 So if you eat any meat at all. So if I were to eat a vegan diet, but I only added one little slice of chicken, then that would mean I'm getting more nutrition.

34:10 The chicken would need to have fat? Yes, then yeah.

[video] 34:14 Okay, so here's the issue. If you actually look at nutrient status of vegans versus omnivores, Vegans actually have a higher status of certain things and higher intake of certain things than meat eaters generally do. So again, you have to look at this from a holistic perspective.

34:34 What you mean by meat eater is somebody who eats probably 70% to 80% of plants, but why do you not simply answer the question? Everybody knows the answer to this. I just told you, you put plants down and you put the diet down with animal foods. It's over 50 nutrients. By definition, it means a vegan diet is the least nutritious man-made diet there has ever been in history. How can you not agree to that?

[video] 35:00 Okay, well, some of the nutrients you're listing aren't even essential nutrients.

35:05 Okay, somehow you're not listening to what I'm saying, man.

[video] 35:09 Okay, well, I am. So for one thing, a lot of the nutrients you're listing are not essential nutrients. So if you're getting them in your diet or not, it really doesn't matter. And secondly, a lot of the nutrients you're listing, like heme iron, vitamin A, vitamin D, those are things you can get on a vegan diet.

35:29 How do you get animal hormone on a vegan diet, vitamin D? Vitamin D?

[video] 35:34 OK, well, fungus, fungi produce it. So you can get D2. It's converted to D3 in your body. Certain fungus also produce D3. You can get D3 from sunlight.

35:45 Yeah, we can talk about this. But you just have to admit that it's the least nutritious diet there is, or we can move on from this. That's it.

35:55 You have to. Everybody knows this.

[video] 35:59 You can't get around this. OK. So why don't we go through each nutrient one by one?

36:05 But you're somehow not listening to what I'm saying. Imagine, okay, maybe you have imagination. You take a basket, you put down every plant on earth, and then you put down plants if you want also, or just put down an animal. It has over 50 nutrients more. That by definition means that a vegan diet is the least nutritious diet there is. What do you not agree on? And I'm not saying that there's essential stuff or that you can convert or anything. I'm saying if a chemist looked at the nutrients, it would find over 50 nutrients more in the diet with meat. What do you not understand?

[video] 36:41 Okay, Sferag, let's agree for the sake of argument that meat has more nutrition in it. So some of this nutrition actually leads to disease. So you mentioned heme iron. So here's a meta-analysis of heme iron intake and its association with coronary heart disease. So this is a meta-analysis. It's not a single study, so it's considered a higher level of evidence. So heme iron, it's a pro-oxidant. It contributes to the development of atherosclerosis by catalyzing the production of hydroxyl-free radicals and promoting low-density lipoprotein oxidation. So if you take a look at heme iron intake, Participants with higher heme iron intake had a 31% increased risk of coronary heart disease compared to those with a lower intake.

37:36 I can already tell you that all of these studies talk about supplements.

[video] 37:40 No, it's not talking about supplements. It's talking about dietary intake. Okay, so epidemiological findings. So we aim to investigate the association by carrying out a meta-analysis of prospective studies. So this is about heme iron... Okay, well, first of all, you get heme iron through diet. There aren't any heme iron supplements.

38:05 The supplements are incredibly toxic because it's iron, it's not natural, it's heated. So this is what they use. So of course it's unhealthy. All supplements are so unhealthy. That just proves that supplements are shit.

[video] 38:17 Okay, well, the study wasn't on supplementation. It was on diet. Well, where does it say that? OK, well, it's perspective research on heme iron intake. It's not. So if this were on supplements.

38:32 It doesn't say anything about diet. They almost always use supplements, medicine, when it comes to this kind of stuff.

[video] 38:41 Okay, well, spherage, these are prospective studies on heme iron. I don't think they use... If this were on supplements, then it wouldn't be on heme iron. They wouldn't have used the word heme iron. It would have been whatever form. I can't remember the most typical form of iron supplement there is, but it's not heme iron.

39:04 Yeah, OK, you have no proof for that. And thanks for conceding and admitting that's the least .

[video] 39:08 OK, Sferage. OK, so Sferage, heme iron intake is associated with an increased risk of disease. So, yeah, okay, so let's agree for the sake of argument. Okay, you can't get heme iron on a vegan diet. Well, good, because heme iron seems to be associated with an increased risk of heart disease. So why would I want to take it?

39:29 But somehow your body does everything it possibly can to convert it to heme iron because you would die without heme iron because animals only work on heme iron.

[video] 39:37 Okay, well, Spheridge, your body actually doesn't have any way to regulate iron stores once it's inside your body, so absorption of iron is very tightly regulated in the intestine. Heme iron bypasses this regulatory mechanism, so you can have... like very dangerously high levels of iron if you get iron through animal product intake. So the natural way to get iron is actually from plants because it doesn't bypass your body's regulatory mechanisms.

40:11 Okay, where's your proof for this?

[video] 40:13 Okay, I don't have that research available right now. All right. Well, if you give me a little bit, maybe I can... I'd have to dig it up. It's been a while. But anyway, Svarage, heme iron. Well, look, Svarage, the point is heme iron intake is associated with an increased risk of chronic disease, like heart disease. So why would I want to consume heme iron?

40:38 Right, there's no proof for this. I just gave you proof.

[video] 40:42 I gave you a meta-analysis of prospective studies.

40:47 Yeah, I know supplements. They're toxic.

[video] 40:49 Those aren't supplements. Spheridge, where does it say supplements on here?

40:54 It doesn't, but it also doesn't say that it comes from the diet.

[video] 40:58 Okay, well, Spheridge, first of all, this is prospective research, and they use the term heme iron. If you actually look up studies on iron supplementation, there aren't any heme iron supplements. There's no heme iron supplements? As far as I'm aware, that's not, let me see, heme iron supplement.

41:21 There's like a million.

[video] 41:22 Alpha heme, okay, so there are heme iron, okay, so yeah, I guess I was mistaken. So typically, let's see, heme iron polypeptide, heme iron... Okay, so apparently they do have heme iron supplements. Okay, well anyway, as far as I was aware before, usually when you look up iron research on supplementation, they don't use heme iron supplements. It's a different type of iron. I can't remember the technical term for it. But anyway, where were we? So anyway, Spherage, this is prospective research on heme iron intake, and nowhere does it... Let's actually look at the full text. Let's see if the full text is available.

[video] 42:14 Okay, let's go to Sci-Hub. Since this is something you want to confirm, Sci-Hub should have this full text available. Let's just look at the methods involved. OK. Introduction. OK. Materials and methods. Systematic search.

[video] 42:36 Let's see. Inclusion criteria. The study design was prospective. The exposure of interest was intake of heme iron. The outcome of interest was coronary heart disease. So this seems to just be dietary intake spharage.

[video] 42:54 I really, oh yeah, if the included studies presented results for total iron and heme iron by different food sources, example red meat fish, yeah, so they did include food sources.

43:07 You can link it to me and I can read it after. That's the best I can do.

[video] 43:10 Okay, sure. But they did include food sources in the research.

43:15 Yeah, just to judge a study, I would have to read the whole study and analyze it. They can take an hour or two. Okay, sure.

[video] 43:22 Okay, well, fair enough. Anyway, so can you actually give me one single benefit to consuming heme iron?

43:31 What do you mean? You would die without it, I just told you.

[video] 43:34 Well, give me one single benefit. What's the one single benefit to consuming heme iron? Not dying. Okay, well, do you have any research showing that heme iron intake reduces risk of all-cause mortality?

43:47 I wouldn't know, I never looked into it.

[video] 43:49 Okay, so then how do you know that... What I'm saying is an animal...

43:53 I don't need a study to know that an animal can't live without heme iron, that's why you convert it.

[video] 43:59 Okay, Sverrej, you just...

44:01 I just asked you... That's why vegans have low iron, that's proven in studies.

[video] 44:04 No, no, it's not, no, okay, can you show me one piece of research showing that vegans have a higher risk of iron deficiency?

44:13 I can try to look it up. It's really just pointless to exchange studies right now. Why can't we just... Okay.

[video] 44:20 Well, anyway, iron in vegetarian diets. Vegetarians with a varied and well-balanced diet are not at any greater risk of iron deficiency and anemia than non-vegetarians.

[video] 44:31 So I haven't seen any research showing that vegans or vegetarians are at a higher risk of iron deficiency.

44:40 Well, for one thing, I wouldn't even need that because, as you know, I interview ex-vegans on my channel, and many of them are iron deficient. So for one thing, I wouldn't, for myself, ever need a study to prove what I already know from experience.

[video] 44:53 OK, well, that's an anecdotal claim. I can find anecdotes.

44:56 They're just human beings, and I, unlike you, care about human beings.

[video] 44:59 Okay, well, Sveric, my wife was iron deficient when she wasn't vegan. Her doctors told her to eat more red meat and even gave her an iron supplement. She was still iron deficient, and it wasn't until after she went on a vegan diet that her iron deficiency went away. So I can find anecdotal claims just like you can. Do you want me to bring her over here and she can tell you? You don't have to just take my word for it? Sparage, I can find anecdotal claims supporting whatever I want, just like you can, so you have to actually provide research. How many vegans have you interviewed on your channel? Let's say 100? Okay, well, I can find studies involving thousands of people where there's no association between a vegetarian diet or a vegan diet and risk of iron deficiency anemia. So what's the better evidence? Like, you know, let's say...

45:53 I'll tell you, because if there's never been anybody who eats an only meat diet, especially raw meat, who has an iron deficiency, and there's tons of vegans who have iron deficiency. So, of course, it's better than any study out there that proves that a vegan diet is, of course, worse when it comes to iron.

[video] 46:09 Okay, so Sverdj, you're anecdotally claiming that you've never seen somebody who eats a raw meat diet who's iron deficient. That's your argument for... It cannot even exist. Okay, so that's your argument. You've anecdotally never seen anyone who's eaten a raw meat diet who's iron deficient?

46:28 That's just one of the points. I'm looking it up right now because in the last debate when we had it in the basement, there was a link. I can link it to you, but I don't understand. It could be possibly that the study is gone.

46:43 This was one of the studies that was supposed to show the iron deficiency of vegans, but I don't really understand what happened to it.

[video] 46:50 Oh, you're saying the full text isn't available?

46:53 I don't see anything. It just says the title at this point.

[video] 46:56 Right, right. Okay, so you can use Sci-Hub. I'll show you. So Sci-Hub is a pretty good resource if you want the full text. So you can either type in the link of the study. or the name, and usually you'll get a full text. Okay, so it looks like... Oh, download PDF. Nope. Doesn't look like that's available. Let's see. Oh, you found it.

47:30 Yeah, but it's just pointless for me to go into this and waste time and read all of this. Just exchanging studies is not what I came here to debate.

[video] 47:38 Okay, well, Sparage, I haven't seen any evidence that vegans are at a higher risk of iron deficiency compared to meat eaters. And on top of that, heme iron intake appears to be associated with a pretty significantly increased risk of heart disease. So what would be the benefit for me eating heme iron?

47:57 Yeah, but that wasn't even my point. I was talking about something completely else. If you want to believe that it's completely irrelevant to me.

[video] 48:07 Okay, well, Sverig, you're saying vegans can't get heme iron. Okay, fair enough. We can't get heme iron through our diet. The point is that why would I want to?

48:20 I told you already. You know my answer.

[video] 48:22 Okay, so your answer is...

48:24 Your body does everything it can to convert. So, of course, it wants heme iron. Do you not understand that?

[video] 48:30 Okay, so you don't think your body should do that process? Why would you, like, again, if your body is doing that process for you, and it's a tightly regulated process, your body makes as much heme iron as it wants, why would you basically take over for, you know, your natural metabolic systems and just judge for yourself, like, what heme iron, like, how much heme iron you want to intake? Because again, when you do this, it seems to increase risk of heart disease.

49:04 Right. And that's the problem, because we have no proof that humans can actually, humans in general, can convert it efficiently. And this is exactly why, like I said, vegans end up with iron deficiencies, from my experience.

[video] 49:18 Okay, so again, there's research showing that vegans and vegetarians don't have higher risk of iron deficiency. And you're just saying from your own experience, you've seen lots of vegans who are iron deficient.

49:30 Of course, my experience is the most important for me anyway. But because it wasn't my point, it's just pointless to talk about this. OK, well, how about we move on a little bit? I actually wanted to discuss a completely different point, which I didn't get to. OK, sure. Go ahead. Right. So you likely have many viewers from places where they don't get sunlight, such as Finland, Sweden, even Canada, where you live, especially more in the north, throughout many months. And as you know, vitamin D is an animal hormone which is not found in plants. Calcitriol, the N-form. So people in Finland, and many vegans in general, Happy Healthy Vegan recently released a blood test result. He was deficient in vitamin D even though he lives in LA.

50:20 But especially people where they get no sun for pretty much nine months and who like to live there, where's your empathy for those humans who can get vitamin D and end up being sick and get kids who get rickets because they don't get vitamin D? Because the only way for them to get it with a natural diet, which is for them to eat fish, meat, et cetera, is, of course, to eat animal foods, because it's only found in animal fat. It's an animal hormone. A vegan diet is impossible in places where there is no sun.

[video] 50:50 Okay, so vitamin D deficiency in these places is extraordinarily common in both vegan and meat-eating populations. So I don't know why you're singling out the vegan population. And there are these things called supplements. If you just go on Amazon, order vegan D3. So look, I can just show you how easy it is. So go on Amazon, vegan D3. And then there you go, vegan D3 bio-enhanced. It's made from a type of fungus lichen. You can get all the D3 you need. It's a pretty reliable source of D3 too because you don't have to rely on eating specific types of animals, specific types of organs. It's cheaper, easier to get. You can get way higher doses than you could just eating it through foods.

51:41 Do you know what the supplement is called? What the actual molecule is that they sell? Okay, what is it? No, I'm just asking. You don't know? OK, well, it's D3. Sorry? Well, they usually say that what they sell is cholecalciferol, which is what is created when sun hits the skin. And you create it from cholesterol, just like most hormones, because that's why it's called cholecalciferol. So where in the moss fungi is there cholesterol?

[video] 52:14 OK, wait. Hangouts is? Okay, I'm having an... You can hear me just fine right now, right? Yeah, what, it disappeared? No, my computer, I think, is just derping or Google. I wanted to share the screen, but anyway, vitamin D3, cholecyferol from lichen. That's the ingredient. Again, I don't know much about fungi, but they do produce D3, cholecyferol.

52:46 Right, but they don't because cholecalciferol is made from animal lipids. That's why it's called Chole because it comes from cholesterol. You just fell into a trap. You blindly appeal to authority, to black and white texts. You have no idea what you're talking about. You're appealing to pharmaceutical companies. You don't give a shit about your subscribers who don't get any sunlight and who gets sick on a vegan diet, who don't get this animal hormone because they eat a non-natural diet. even though they should be eating animal fat. You have zero proof because it can't even be. And you have no idea about supplements whatsoever. Supplements are fake. It's a business, man. You completely, you vegans fell for it and you're slaves of the pharmaceutical companies. You're taking medicine to treat your nutritionally deficient diet.

[video] 53:35 What an absolute joke. Okay, spheridge. Lycan, type of fungus, it can produce cholecyferol.

53:45 I just told you it comes from cholesterol. Okay, spheridge. Lycan is for cholesterol.

[video] 53:50 Okay, spheridge. Do you have evidence that lycan cannot produce vitamin D3 cholecyferol?

53:57 Do you have proof that it has cholesterol?

[video] 54:00 Yes. Look, look, look, Spheridge, it's on the label. Lichen has cholesterol and animal lipid? Sorry? Lichen has cholesterol and animal lipid? Okay, well, Spheridge, I don't know how lichen produce cholesterol. Yeah, you don't know. That's my whole point. You have no idea what you're talking about right now. Spheridge, Spheridge, you're the one making the claim that any plant cannot, like, including fungi... They cannot produce cholecyferol. Do you have any evidence that like lichen or any kind of fungus cannot produce cholecyferol?

54:35 Yes, I just told you it is made from cholesterol. That's why it's called cholecyferol. Where is cholesterol lichen?

[video] 54:42 There's never been found that it cannot have it. I mean, God damn it. Fucking Chrome isn't fucking working. My Chrome literally is just derping it. Give me a second.

[video] 54:59 All my tabs are just saying not responding. Give me a second here if I can.

[video] 55:09 Wow, OK. I've never had this happen before. Let me see if I can open Firefox.

55:15 By the way, if anybody can see, this is the highest source of vitamin D. It's an animal brain, and it's super yummy also. And this is what people eat in nature. This is where they get vitamin D.

[video] 55:29 Let me just see if I can find an article on how lichen produce calciferol.

55:34 It tastes pretty much like egg yolks.

[video] 55:59 Give me a second, I'm just trying to, I haven't actually researched the topic on how lichen exactly produce chalciferol, but let me just see.

56:10 because it can't um there's been many supplements that have been exposed that are because it's unregulated nobody regulates supplements so they they find molecules that look similar to what they want to sell for example i can give a perfect example most people have no idea about this um One sec. Well, I pretty much remember it. It's vitamin E. Pretty much 99% of vitamin E supplements come from byproducts of the film industry. They want to make money off the stupid... to buy, yeah, it is, to buy vitamin E because they found a molecule that looks somewhat similar to vitamin E. And because supplements are unregulated, they actually sell them and people get vitamin E toxicity because it's not actually vitamin E. They get toxicity from the byproducts of the film industry. That's what a joke supplements are.

57:07 You eat a nutrient deficient diet and the supplements cannot help you. There is no cholesterol in lichen. You're never going to prove this. You lost the debate.

[video] 57:18 Let me see. No, just a moment here.

[video] 57:24 Let's see.

[video] 57:28 Okay, I found a paper saying provitamin D2 ergosterol synthesized by many fungi. Okay, so it sounds like fungi are able to produce a sterol form, and then your body converts it into a coliciferol. You mean D2?

57:45 Yeah.

[video] 57:47 So it looks like lichen have D3. Right.

57:52 But there is no proof that the molecule, there's no proof. There's no proof of what the molecule looks like. There's no proof of the process, seeing as it is made by cholesterol. Or are you denying that that's why it's called cholecalciferol?

[video] 58:07 Okay, well, your own body produces cholesterol, so I don't see how this is an issue.

58:10 No, that's not my point. No, I'm saying that it's impossible that lichen has cholecalciferol, seeing as it's made from cholesterol. It cannot have it. It's absolutely ridiculous that you're saying this. Every chemist on earth would laugh at you right now.

[video] 58:27 Let me see. Just give me a moment. Sorry, I haven't prepared for this. So I just want to quickly look at... Well, I've researched it, man.

58:37 You're not going to find an answer to this.

58:43 It's just one of the things that vegans have no answer for.

[video] 59:01 Okay, so let's see.

59:21 Also, if anybody is curious, this is the highest source of vitamin A. It's the liver of an animal. It also tastes really great. And it's the most nutritious food there is.

[video] 59:31 OK. So I can't find any great resources on this.

[video] 59:39 Okay, so look, let's just agree for the sake of argument. Look, you can't get fully formed D3-cholesterol from plants. You can take a supplement as a vegan, and it does prevent D3 deficiencies.

59:53 Well, it would be called the trial. That would be the end form of The actual animal hormone, which we call D3. Okay. And there is no proof that you can convert and get it as a vegan. Okay. There's no proof of any vegan D3. supplement d2 or the from the lichen that it works they're simply blindly appealing to authority right now it's a fallacy you're not going to get anywhere with it okay wait let me see if i can find a study on vitamin d2 and see if that actually can prevent or treat d3 deficiency

1:00:34 I can already tell you that there are studies that find the supplement in the blood. It doesn't prove that it actually treats vitamin D. It's simply when you take a supplement, you find it in the blood, whatever is digested, even if it's 1%. But that doesn't mean that it's vitamin D. You simply find the supplement in the blood, which is a similar molecule. There's no proof that they in any way work or that it's an animal hormone or anything. And obviously, vegans can't take animal hormones because they would be not vegan.

[video] 1:01:14 Okay, wait a second. I think I just found a study. My Google Chrome is completely fucked, so I can't share the goddamn screen anymore.

[video] 1:01:27 I'm worried that if I exit Chrome, the stream will crash. I'm not sure if that would be an issue. Okay, so let's see.

[video] 1:01:45 Just a moment here.

[video] 1:02:09 Okay, I did find a study on D2 supplementation and curing deficiency. So vitamin D2 treatment for vitamin D deficiency and insufficiency for up to six years. That's the study name. It was published October 26, 2009. And they used D2, vitamin D2, ergo calciferol. And it did treat vitamin D deficiency.

1:02:37 How does it say it treated? What's the conclusion they came to? How did they conclude that it treated it?

[video] 1:02:43 Vitamin D levels. So let's see. The efficacy of this regimen has been previously described to prevent recurrent vitamin D deficiency and also maintain adequate levels in patients who are vitamin D deficient. We treat with... 50,000 IUs of ergo calciferol every other week indefinitely, a regimen that, to our knowledge, has not been published to date. And then if you read the results, basically after treatment, people maintained adequate vitamin D levels.

[video] 1:03:19 So do you want me to... So I can't link the fucking study right now because my Chrome has completely taken a shit.

[video] 1:03:28 And yeah, I can, no, that's through Chrome too. So again, vitamin D2 treatment for vitamin D deficiency and insufficiency for up to six years. So you can find clinical trials where they do treat patients with non-animal forms of vitamin D and it is adequate for treatment. Right. What did you mean about six years? Okay, I believe this is six years of follow-up, I believe.

[video] 1:04:06 Yeah, this is treatment range.

1:04:09 So these are just random people who eat vitamin D anyway in their diet if they eat animal fat, so this proves nothing. Okay, well, they're deficient. Yeah, but it doesn't account for what their diet is.

[video] 1:04:22 Well, yes, it does. They're vitamin D deficient, and then they used a plant-based form of vitamin D to get rid of their deficiency.

1:04:33 I already asked you, how did they conclude that they didn't have the deficiency anymore?

[video] 1:04:38 Just by serum levels.

1:04:40 Yeah, which would be the supplement in the blood. That doesn't mean that they have vitamin D, like the actual calcitriol.

[video] 1:04:47 Okay, well, after several months of follow-up, I believe that's the only way to determine whether or not you're vitamin D deficient.

1:04:58 Yeah, but they would still only find the supplement in the blood. It doesn't say anything about them having calcitriol or anything.

[video] 1:05:05 Okay, well, Sferage, the conclusion of the study was that this is an inexpensive way to treat vitamin D deficiency. It was effective. I don't know what else to tell you.

1:05:20 Yeah, nothing because you can't prove it. And besides, even if there was a supplement out there that would work, which there isn't, Maybe not everybody wants to take medicine, right? Maybe people want to eat food. You ever thought that some people simply want to live in a colder climate, such as one of my friends who lives in Finland, and he wants to eat food. He doesn't want to take drugs or medicine. He simply wants to eat food.

[video] 1:05:44 OK, well, vitamin D supplements are medicine. And secondly, Sferidj, you're the one who's claiming that it is impossible to treat vitamin D deficiency with supplementation, especially through plant sources of vitamin D. Do you have any research on that?

1:06:05 There's never been any research done. That's the thing.

[video] 1:06:07 Okay, so then how can you make that claim?

1:06:10 What do you mean? We already went through this.

[video] 1:06:12 No, you didn't. Okay, so what evidence do you have to make that claim that it is impossible to treat vitamin D deficiency with plant sources of D?

1:06:21 There isn't evidence for or against it. There simply isn't evidence. My whole point is that vegans cannot get an animal hormone on a vegan diet. And you don't need anything except for simple common sense to understand that they can't get it. If you don't have it on your diet, then you can't get it.

[video] 1:06:43 Okay, Sverg, so you make vitamin D through sun exposure, and you can also convert plant forms of vitamin D to calciferol.

1:06:51 Yeah, that's what I said. Finland, Sweden, Canada, and so on.

[video] 1:06:54 Right, and you can convert plant sources of vitamin D to calciferol. No proof. Okay, well, where's your proof that you can't?

1:07:05 I just told you. There is no proof either way. Why do you keep asking the same question? If you can't get vitamin D on a vegan diet, then that's it. I don't need to prove that there's... I don't need a study of vegans that have been that have been studied because they simply haven't. If they can't get it, I don't understand what you don't get. If a baby doesn't have a toy, then it simply doesn't have the toy. I don't need to prove that the babies don't have toys.

[video] 1:07:40 Give me one moment. I'm taking a look at another study.

1:07:51 Your appeal to studies and authority is pathetic, by the way.

[video] 1:07:55 OK, well, that's the most accurate means of like that's the best means of looking at data like of finding out the truth. Why would I just make assumptions?

1:08:09 Oh, you don't need to. Everybody understands that there is no vitamin D in a vegan diet. You don't need to study for that.

[video] 1:08:16 Okay, Spheridge, there are vegan sources of vitamin D, and you can convert vegan sources of vitamin D, like ergo-calciferol to coliciferol.

1:08:33 Vitamin D, by definition, is an animal hormone. There are no vegan sources. You're talking about pre-vitamin, pretty much, just like beta-carotene and vitamin A. Beta-carotene is not a vitamin, same as the plant. True. That's true. Vitamin D2 is also not a vitamin.

[video] 1:08:53 Okay. That's true. Give me one second. I'm almost done looking up some research with vitamin D2 and D3.

[video] 1:09:05 Okay, so I found two studies. One of them is a meta-analysis. So I guess I'll reference the meta-analysis first. Comparison of vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 supplementation in raising serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D status. So that's what they look for on a blood test to see if you're vitamin D deficient. A systematic review and meta-analysis. So I don't know too much about vitamin D, but that seems to be the active form in the human body, 25-dehydroxyvitamin D. So what they found was vitamin D2 supplementation does elevate levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D, but it's not as good at doing that as vitamin D3. So you can raise vitamin D levels in the body with vitamin D2.

[video] 1:10:02 So plant form of vitamin D. Wait, what was the plant form called? It's ergo calciferol, vitamin D2. So you can use ergocalciferol to raise 25-hydroxyvitamin D in human serum. What's the study called? Okay, so it's Comparison of Vitamin D2 and Vitamin D3 Supplementation in Raising Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin D Status, a Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis. Sorry, everyone. My Google Chrome is just completely fucked right now. Everything's frozen, and it's just not getting better.

1:10:46 By the way, one question. So your ideal world would be everybody eating plants and taking medicine from pharmaceutical companies. That's what you want people to do. And of course, you have no empathy for humans who just want to eat food, right?

[video] 1:11:00 Okay, well, Sverrage, vitamin D deficiencies are extraordinarily common, and especially among people with darker skin. So this has nothing to do with vegan versus meat. Meat eaters get vitamin D deficiencies.

1:11:16 no somebody who only eats animal fat couldn't even possibly get it if they well i'm on 50 to 70 percent animal fat as a natural that would be it would be obviously impossible okay well spherge what are the highest sources of vitamin uh d on like sorry what are the best sources of vitamin d on an animal based diet point and this is why what you call meat eaters quote unquote are deficient because they don't eat actual meat. They are afraid of fat because of the dietary guidelines of today. So as I showed before, the brain of the animal, that's the highest source of vitamin D. So I am in the sun a lot also because I can in summer, not in winter. And other than that, I eat...

[video] 1:11:56 Okay, well, Sparage, what if somebody doesn't want to eat a brain?

[video] 1:12:01 They just don't like the taste.

1:12:03 That wouldn't even be possible. It just tastes like eggs pretty much. Everybody likes the taste.

[video] 1:12:08 Okay, well, I hate the taste of eggs. Even before, when I ate meat and ate eggs, I hated the taste of eggs. Cooked eggs? Both cooked or raw. I've eaten raw eggs, too.

1:12:20 Oh, they don't taste exactly like eggs, but you wouldn't know because you've never ate brain, so you couldn't even possibly comment on it.

[video] 1:12:27 Okay, well, I've known some people who have eaten brain, and they said they hated the taste.

1:12:34 Yeah, but who were those people? What do they typically eat?

[video] 1:12:37 Weird shit. They ended up eating brain.

1:12:41 Yeah, but what do they generally eat? Absolute shit, processed food. So they never even ate that before. Nobody in nature has ever said that they don't like the taste of raw animal foods. It's only modern slaves who would say that. So how is that even relevant?

[video] 1:12:56 Okay, well, Sferidj, you just made an appeal to personal preference. Some people personally prefer not to take supplements, while some people personally prefer not to eat animals.

1:13:07 Well, Ed, that's absolutely fine. You cannot eat animals. Nobody cares about vegans not eating animals. It's that you're pushing it onto everybody. So that's why I ask you. Obviously, you want everybody to go vegan, right? So what's your ideal world? Everybody taking pharmaceuticals.

[video] 1:13:23 OK, well, Serge, here's another issue. Why don't you answer the question? OK, well, no, here's another. Sorry, what was the question?

1:13:31 What's your ideal world? Would you want everybody to eat plants and take pharmaceuticals, medicine?

[video] 1:13:37 Okay, well, vitamin supplements are not pharmaceuticals. They're vitamin supplements. They're not drugs. So I want to make that distinction.

1:13:45 By definition, it's drugs. By definition. Oh, by definition.

[video] 1:13:49 Okay, so what definition of drug are you using?

1:13:52 The most common definition, because you would have to, you're trying to treat your nutrient deficient diet by taking supplements. A supplement simply means to fulfill something that is not whole. Seeing as a vegan diet is missing over 50 nutrients, you're trying to fill in the gaps. That's what supplementing means. And you supplement with a drug that's been created in a laboratory. And the medicine is simply something, a chemical that you use to treat an illness. That's the definition of medicine. And your illness is that you're nutrient deficient. That's why vegans take supplements because they eat a nutrient deficient diet.

[video] 1:14:33 Okay, Sparage, are you saying it's absolutely impossible to become nutritionally deficient if your entire diet is only made up of meat?

1:14:41 Yeah, of course.

[video] 1:14:42 Okay, so if I ate nothing but plain white chicken breast, I would not be deficient in anything? You would have to eat fat. Okay, so it is possible. Correct. Okay, so then it is possible to eat nothing but meat and be deficient in something.

1:14:57 No, what do you mean? What is meat? Look, I just gave you a scenario where you could eat. The definition of meat is that meat is the flesh of an animal. You have to eat the whole animal, obviously. There is no such thing as chicken breast. Chicken breast is not a natural food.

[video] 1:15:14 Okay. Okay, well, Svirj, the point I made here is that it is possible to set up a nutritionally deficient diet that only includes animal products. Like, look, it is difficult under, like, if you're following any diet to meet all of your nutritional requirements without any kind of fortification or supplementation. That's why all throughout human history, we see people having, you know, vitamin mineral deficiencies And even just deficiencies in energy, like starvation has been an issue all throughout human history.

1:15:48 Right, but that's when you don't eat. Yeah, but my point is... I have a strange definition of meat. Meat to me means a whole animal. It comes from me eat. It's just an old word of saying I want to eat. It's meat. It's because humans have always been eating animals. So your definition is chicken breast and nobody has the definition of meat. So of course, it's just stupid. OK, well, you can't be deficient in any nutrients if you eat animals.

[video] 1:16:16 OK, well, OK, let's just agree for the sake of argument. If we followed your diet, it would be impossible to be nutritionally deficient in anything. Let's just agree for the sake of argument right now. that doesn't actually mean you're going to be healthy. Because again, you mentioned that we have to eat large amounts of saturated fat, cholesterol, the adipose tissue of an animal, brain tissue. Well, all of those foods significantly raise your LDL cholesterol, which is the primary principal risk factor for heart disease. Saturated fat, it also causes type 2 diabetes. So, okay, let's agree for the sake of argument. That is impossible.

1:17:00 Sorry. It's just such a joke. I don't even understand how many people watch our videos even believe that. This is such old science. Pretty much nobody even in the science community believes it. There's like 20 vegan doctors that still believe that cholesterol is bad for you. It's just such a joke.

[video] 1:17:17 Okay, well, Sferage, based on over 200 meta-analyses of prospective data, clinical research, randomized trials, Mendelian randomization studies, LDL cholesterol has an incredibly strong link to heart disease. So there's no arguing this at this point.

1:17:37 Whatever, you're going off topic anyway. The point was vitamin D and you...

[video] 1:17:42 Okay, well, Sferage, the thing is... uh i don't know too too much about the topic of vitamin d so i thought it would have been so look so look you were wrong about your one statement that it's impossible to convert uh vegan sources of vitamin d like uh ergo calciferol or ergo calciferol i i can't remember the i never said it i simply said there there is no proof i'm i'm sure there is i i i i I didn't link it on screen because my Chrome is fucked up right now, but I did mention the study, and they did find that D2 can be used to treat vitamin D deficiency. It raises the active form in serum.

1:18:22 I can't find it. How did they come to this conclusion? How did they conclude it? Because I can't find it.

[video] 1:18:31 Okay, so again, I'll leave the name of the meta-analysis. Comparison of vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 supplementation in raising serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D status. So 25-hydroxyvitamin D, that's the form of vitamin D in serum where it's like the active form in the body. And vitamin D2 was able to raise 25-hydroxyvitamin D. Now, it wasn't as good as vitamin D3, but I think that's still a topic of contention, whether or not you can actually get vitamin D3 from plants. I'd actually have to look into that topic a little more, because you threw me off there. I just haven't studied vitamin D enough to give you a good answer.

[video] 1:19:21 Okay, so the point is you can get forms of vitamin D from plants through supplementation. I know you personally don't like supplementation, but that is a route to get vitamin D. And secondly, I think it is... you know, worthwhile to point out that, okay, you can get vitamin D. And even if we were to agree for the sake of argument that, okay, if we followed your diet where, you know, you eat all these different brains, different organs, lots of fat, it would be impossible to be a nutrient deficient in anything. Well, the issue there is you're eating animal foods that have been proven to increase risk of chronic disease. And one of the reasons why these animal foods increase risk of chronic disease is because they elevate your serum cholesterol score.

[video] 1:20:10 So I think, so I would argue that it would be more beneficial to follow a nutrient deficient vegan diet where you have to take supplementation, but you avoid these disease causing animal foods.

1:20:24 Right. I understand that you don't care or even don't like nature. Maybe you hate nature, but how do you see this? It's just so ridiculous. So in nature, as human beings, as any animal, that any animal does a natural diet, the only way for them to get it is to eat animals, right? Vitamin D. And that's what people do all around the world, obviously, but especially more so when they don't get sunlight for many months. how could those how could those animals somehow slowly kill you which is kind of what you're saying if if what you're eating are the animal cells which are exactly like your animal cells like how can Nature is just so beyond retarded. How can nature kill you even though the only way to get these nutrients is through eating the animals? But somehow there's this bad thing, this boogeyman, cholesterol, saturated animal fat.

1:21:24 I just don't understand the level of retarded that your viewers, I just feel so sad for your viewers.

[video] 1:21:32 Okay, well, I have a vegan diet that just damaged their brain. Okay, well, I have a few things to say to that. For one thing, do you think it could be possible that there are benefits to eating certain foods and there are also negatives to eating certain foods?

1:21:46 No, absolutely not. The natural human diet only has benefits. There are zero... Just nothing, nothing that's bad whatsoever about it.

[video] 1:21:55 OK, well, the way evolution works, it's basically an attempt to just improve survivability just because we've evolved to eat certain foods. Like, let's say, for the sake of argument, we evolved to eat meat. That doesn't mean it's perfectly 100% healthy for us. Look at what's happening to pandas right now. Pandas have evolved to eat bamboo. Well, bamboo is extremely low in nutrition. There's only a certain type of bamboo they can even eat, I believe. And that's actually the primary reason for why they're going extinct, pandas. So just because you might have evolved to eat a certain thing in a certain quantity, that doesn't mean your diet is going to be absolutely perfect for you. A panda's diet, it's very difficult for them to get an adequate amount of nutrition. just because of what they've evolved to eat.

[video] 1:22:51 So do you think the same could be maybe the case for human beings where, you know, possibly, you know, through, like, we have to get certain nutrients through animal foods, but there's the caveat that if we eat too much, that, you know, we increase our risk of chronic disease. Do you think that could be a possibility?

1:23:11 Well, panda eating bamboo is similar to how vegans eat only plants because they have a carnivorous digestive tract, so they should be eating meat, but they don't for whatever reason.

[video] 1:23:22 I wouldn't possibly know. Okay, well, the point I was making is, you know, evolution isn't perfect. Let's say if we did evolve to include some animal products in our diet, that doesn't mean if we eat, you know, like if we eat these products, they don't have positives and negatives. It doesn't mean we've perfectly adapted to a certain food.

1:23:47 Right. Okay, so what you're saying is that we are now switching to eating only plants and taking pharmaceuticals. That's evolution to you.

[video] 1:23:56 Okay, no, I don't think you're understanding my argument. You're saying if you eat a natural diet, it has to be 100% perfect, not cause any disease at all. Well, what I'm saying is there are positives and negatives to every food, every diet. And one of the negatives to your diet is that it does. It is being demonstrably proven to increase risk of heart disease, which is the main cause of death worldwide. So maybe it's not such a great idea to eat a natural diet. Okay, so...

1:24:32 You probably believe that there's some miraculous exceptions to all of this. And everything besides studies, which are mostly by pharmaceutical companies or supported by them, that is just irrelevant. But the oldest living man right now, his slogan for life, he's 113 right now, is always butter, never margarine. He's been eating butter his whole life. Even if you say that that's anecdotal, blah, blah, blah, just like all people who live a long life, then you would still have to say, fuck, living to 113 is pretty good odds. And of course, people should keep eating butter. Even if you call it anecdotal, you can live to 113 years by eating meat and butter every day.

[video] 1:25:17 Okay, well, the issue with that, Spheridge, is there can be weird outliers in a population. I had a neighbor who lived down the street from me. He was a very heavy smoker. He started smoking since he was 13 years old. He lived up until 84, which is longer than the average life expectancy in this country for a male. So does that mean smoking isn't really all that harmful? Because I can find one... He died at 84.

1:25:43 That's why he died prematurely, of course.

[video] 1:25:46 Okay, well, Sferage, you can probably bring up this article with a quick Google search. There's a woman, I think, in India who's a heavy smoker, and she claims to be over 100 years old. So again, you can find anecdotal examples. I think actually one of the oldest...

1:26:02 But who knows when she's going to die? For example, the other oldest living woman that was 118, I believe, from Italy, she ate raw meat and one raw egg a day or two raw eggs, whatever. so she ate raw animal foods again i like the odds of living to that kind of age and i don't need studies or anything if i see people who live over 110 and eat butter and raw animal foods then absolutely i'll go for it

[video] 1:26:28 OK, well, Sferag, I can find people who've lived over 100 who smoke cigarettes regularly. Does that mean smoking cigarettes is good? Because I can find some people living over 100.

1:26:38 No, because people maybe die at 103, 105. That doesn't mean that they live healthy, or it doesn't mean that they look healthy. All of those people eat a high animal fat diet, and the smoking simply decreases their lifespan or makes them sick quicker. That doesn't mean that smoking is not even logical, what you're saying.

[video] 1:26:54 Okay, well, wait a second. How do you know smoking didn't increase their life expectancy when you have these people living over 100?

1:27:01 Simply because I don't believe that smoking is healthy for you.

[video] 1:27:03 You're ingesting smoke.

1:27:04 Okay, well, why not? because you're ingesting smoke. And I don't know what they smoke. If they smoke typical cigarettes, then why do I need to list to you the harmful side effects of smoking right now?

[video] 1:27:14 OK, well, how do you know that smoking has harmful side effects?

1:27:20 OK, are you talking about commercial cigarettes?

[video] 1:27:23 Yeah, yeah. How do you know if smoking has harmful side effects?

1:27:26 Okay, so for one thing, they had a sugar coating at the end of the cigarette. So when you smoke it, you smoke the caramelized sugar, basically, and you inhale that, and nicotine itself is not healthy for sure. Do you disagree with that?

[video] 1:27:45 Okay, well, Sparage, I'm asking you, how do you know cigarette smoking is unhealthy? Like, what evidence are you basing this on?

1:27:53 I just told you

[video] 1:27:55 Okay, well, I can find people who live over 100 who are smokers. Actually, one of the longest living people who ever lived, I think she lived up until 114. She occasionally smoked cigarettes. So what's the evidence?

1:28:09 If you're going to rely on anecdotal claims... What does nothing to do with food?

[video] 1:28:14 So what? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. These people smoke cigarettes. So clearly, some of these longest living people who ever lived, they smoked cigarettes. So clearly, cigarette smoking is good for you, right? Are you joking or are you retarded? No, I'm showing why your line of reasoning is flawed. You can't just rely on personal anecdotal claims. It's better to rely on large samples of data.

1:28:37 I absolutely can because it proves that the food doesn't decrease life expectancy, and I don't care if it's not by a study if I can see that they live that long.

[video] 1:28:48 Okay, and look, who cares about all the research on smoking, increasing risk of cancer, disease, heart attacks? I found people who are some of the longest-living people on Earth, and they smoke cigarettes, so obviously smoking cigarettes isn't really harmful. And it has nothing to do with food, so that proves nothing.

1:29:05 You could also say that for a walk and whatever, it has nothing to do with food.

[video] 1:29:09 It doesn't matter if it doesn't have anything to do with food. Clearly, smoking is a healthy activity because I can find some people who are living over 100 who are smokers. the zero logic. No, no, that's the same exact reasoning you're using. I can find people who are living a very long time who are eating fat. That's your reasoning. Well, I can find people who are living a very long time smoking cigarettes. So do anecdotal claims, is that a higher weight of evidence than meta-analyses, randomized trials?

1:29:40 Smoking doesn't increase longevity. There is zero proof for it. Whereas you're comparing food with smoking. You create hormones, you create cells by eating food. You need saturated animal fat and cholesterol for one thing. This is why all of the longest living people eat those high animal fat diets. Smoking does nothing like that. So you have zero proof.

[video] 1:30:01 OK, well, the longest living population on Earth is the Adventist vegetarians. They have the longest average life expectancy.

1:30:08 And the longest living ones are the fish eaters. I really looked into it.

[video] 1:30:12 OK, well, they had the lowest risk of all-cause mortality. That's true. But you're only talking about, what was it, like 1.2 years or something on average?

1:30:23 Yeah, I wouldn't know, but I know many people from these groups and a lot of them eat meat. I would rather then look, if you want to talk about civilizations and whatever, then I would look at all of the blue zones and all of them eat a high animal fat diet.

[video] 1:30:37 Okay, well, all of the blue zones also eat really healthy plant foods too, like beans and legumes. So why are you cherry picking certain things?

1:30:48 Yeah, because the staple of their diet is animal fat.

[video] 1:30:52 Okay, so can you actually provide me any research showing that the majority of their diet comes from animal fat? And actually, better yet, why don't you show me a blue zone country and show me that the people who eat more animal fat in these countries or in these areas, they live longer than the people who eat a more plant-based diet.

1:31:11 Have you not heard about the Okinawans, the island of pork?

[video] 1:31:14 Okay, well, the research I've seen there, the vast majority of their diet is plant-based, and most of their calories come from purple and orange sweet potatoes.

1:31:24 Oh, my God. Did you know that this comes from after World War II when they killed most of the pigs? Okay. You didn't even know this. Oh, my God. Okay, cool. It comes from they were starving, man. They were starving at the time. Okay, good. It was a starvation time to them just like it is with all humans. Okay, so they eat raw goat meat, they eat fish, they cook everything in lard, which is pig fat. They eat a pig fat diet. That's why so many of them live to over 100 years old.

[video] 1:31:54 Okay, so that's good, Sviraj. The issue here is that there's no granularity to this data set. So there are a lot of things that can go into longevity, disease prevention, your genetics, your overall lifestyle, what activity you do, living a stress-free life, things like this. So for you to just cherry pick a country, not really look at their whole overall diet and lifestyle and say, oh, well, they're doing this, so obviously that's healthy. That doesn't really make any sense. So if you're going to claim that their really high pork fat diet is great for them, well, then why don't you show some granularity to the data set? Can you show me evidence that the people in Okinawa who eat the most amount of meat, the most amount of fat from pigs, live the longest, have the lowest risk of disease? You mean a study? This hasn't been studied. Okay, so then how can you reasonably make this claim?

1:32:48 Well, what do you mean, this is what they eat? This is what's been reported. Of course, there isn't...

[video] 1:32:52 Okay, well, Sverdj, the issue is there's no granularity to the data set. You're just taking a look at a country... Well, look, Sverdj, you're just taking a look at a country or, like, I guess Okinawa is technically not its own separate country. But basically, you're looking at an area where people are living. You're noticing that these people have a low incidence of disease, live longer. So you can't just cherry pick certain things and say, oh, look, they're eating a lot of pig fat. That must be why they're living longer. Well, why isn't it something else? Why isn't it the plants they're eating? Why isn't it the type of medicines they use?

1:33:27 Because they eat very few plants. How could that in any way do anything?

[video] 1:33:32 Okay, Sverdj, the point I'm making is you're cherry-picking one aspect of their whole lifestyle, and you're saying that's the reason why they're living longer with no actual evidence. So do you have any evidence that the people who are eating more pork fat, more pig fat, they're living longer than the people who are eating less and eating more plant-based?

1:33:52 How is it not evidence that if the people eat those foods and they live long, how is it not evidence?

[video] 1:33:59 Okay, well, Sviraj, again, like there are many, many factors that are involved with disease prevention, longevity. There are genetic factors for longevity, absolutely. Like, again, the Mendelian randomization, like the European Atherosclerosis Society consensus paper I sent you, they, you know, looked over meta-analyses of Mendelian randomization studies. If you look at the Mendelian randomization studies, people who have genetically low cholesterol, they tend to just live longer because they avoid chronic disease in the first place. So the people in Okinawa, they might just have a genetic advantage over the American population for longevity. And despite eating a diet high in meat, that could potentially increase their life expectancy. So there are these issues that you have to keep in mind. So that's why you need actual data.

[video] 1:34:54 Can you actually provide data that the people who eat more meat in Okinawa tend to live longer?

1:35:00 I told you it's not studied and you know that.

[video] 1:35:01 Okay, cool. So then you can't reasonably make that claim. You're just making a spurious correlation.

1:35:05 That is fine by me. I told you that's more important to me. So let's just move on from this.

[video] 1:35:09 Okay, fair enough. Okay, fair enough. So where do you want to go from here?

1:35:16 Well, I've been reading the study about the vitamin D, but I just don't see how you came to the conclusion that vitamin D2 somehow helps.

[video] 1:35:24 OK, well, it's 0.25 hydroxy vitamin D status.

1:35:30 So what the results say?

1:35:34 In the meta-analysis? Pre has a significant blah, blah, blah. D3 was better. But do you understand what it actually says, like how much it increased, how much vitamin D they got out of it? Nothing like that.

[video] 1:35:52 OK, well, the results from the study, I only took a quick glance. But D2 did elevate vitamin D status. It just didn't do it as much as D3. So the conclusion from the study.

1:36:05 So it could be nothing, pretty much. wait sorry what do you mean no i'm just looking at any kind of numbers there's just no proof nothing that it at the results but the conclusions okay let me just pretty much nothing zero point one one zero point zero zero one uh that's completely irrelevant because we need tons of vitamin d so how does how would that help anybody from finland sweden or anywhere

[video] 1:36:40 What do you mean?

1:36:43 How could they treat their vitamin D deficiency if we have no proof that how much, even if it could somehow help, which I don't believe, it doesn't even show how much it would help.

[video] 1:36:58 Okay, so I'm just quickly looking through the study. It's a pretty long paper, but the conclusion of the study was that they recommend cholecyferol rather than ergo-cholecyferol supplementation, just because it seems to be better at improving vitamin D status. So you have to take less of the supplement.

[video] 1:37:24 The point you were making was that you can't convert plant sources of vitamin D into cholecyferol, which obviously you can use plant sources of vitamin D for elevating vitamin D status. I'd have to look through the paper a little more. It's pretty long. I think this would probably be better to discuss later or just make a video on. I'll probably make a video on this after the debate.

1:37:52 Yeah, because 99% of the D2 supplements, the plant ones, are made from irradiated vegetable oil. So again, it's just a way to find a molecule that looks similar somehow to vitamin D. So there's just zero proof that any of the supplements work or that you can...

[video] 1:38:11 Okay, well, the meta-analysis I linked to you...

1:38:16 as far as the study goes, it could be nothing pretty much. It could be 0.001. It would be completely irrelevant because you need lots of vitamin D. So you have absolutely no proof that you can treat vitamin D deficiency on a vegan diet with supplements. You need animal foods. That's that.

[video] 1:38:38 OK. I think the vitamin D discussion should probably be put on hold just because i don't know enough about vitamin d i'd have to do more research you lost this one Okay, fair enough. Like, look, I referenced a meta-analysis showing that you can use vitamin D2 to elevate vitamin D status, prevent deficiency, which you can do. It's just not as effective as D3. As far as I know, there are plant sources of vitamin D3 in the form of coliciferol. I'd have to look into how it's produced because... You did mention some things that I just don't know anything about. I don't really have a response prepared. So yeah, I'd rather just either maybe set up another debate about this or just do a response video after the debate, just going over D3 and shit. I just need more time to research the topic.

1:39:34 All right. I would like to also discuss vitamin A. Okay, sure. Because I don't know if you have seen my videos about it, the studies that I linked that there's people who have these genetic mutations, as we talked about in the last debate a little bit, who can convert to vitamin A. And then you were saying that there's supplements, but again, it's an animal vitamin and there's no proof that there's any source of it.

[video] 1:39:59 So there's vitamin A palmitate and there's recently a new supplement on the market where they take beta carotene from carrots and then they add an enzyme to it, which converts it into retinol. And again, in Indonesia, where vitamin A deficiency is widespread because they pretty much only eat rice. They've used vitamin A supplements to treat deficiency. So it is an effective way of treating deficiency. Now, the issue here, Sverdj... Wait, wait. Where's the proof of that? What? That they can treat a deficiency. the proof that you can treat vitamin A deficiency with a vitamin supplement?

1:40:39 Yeah, of course, because there's no proof the supplements work. Okay. We have seen the studies that when you take high doses of vitamin A, that it becomes toxic because those are toxins there's never been proof that you eat liver for example that you have any side effects because there's there's only overdoses of synthetic toxic vitamin a which is not vitamin a because it's an actual toxin which looks similar to vitamin a because it's a similar molecule that's it so you can't treat the vitamin a deficiency with supplements

[video] 1:41:12 Okay, let me see if I can bring up a study on vitamin A palmitate, and I'll see if I can, because you can treat a vitamin A deficiency with a supplement. Let me just, I'll just do a quick search on PubMed, I guess.

[video] 1:41:36 Let's see.

[video] 1:41:53 I'm just quickly looking this up. Sorry, just give me a moment. I'm reading the study.

[video] 1:42:28 Okay, so I found a study where vitamin A palmitate treated vitamin A deficiency. Some kind of supplement, you don't even know where the supplement comes from. Okay, well, again, I do know that most forms of vitamin A palmitate are vegan.

1:42:48 Those supposed being supplements that you're talking about, you have no proof that they work. That's my point.

[video] 1:42:53 OK, well, I'm showing you a case report where it did work to treat vitamin A deficiency. Oh, what is it called?

1:43:03 It's not going to say what kind of supplement it is, so it's sort of relevant.

[video] 1:43:07 Yeah, it does tell us what supplement it is. So treatment of vitamin A deficiency, retinopathy with sublingual vitamin A palmitate. They used vitamin A palmitate. I'm assuming it's in a liquid form. They dropped it underneath her tongue, and it's basically absorbed through the skin. It's sort of like a sublingual B12 supplement. I think they also have sublingual vitamin D supplements.

1:43:32 Okay, yeah, go on.

[video] 1:43:36 Okay, so basically, if you read the study, I'll just say it out loud again. Treatment of vitamin A deficiency, retinopathy with sublingual vitamin A palmitate. And basically she had retinopathy. Let me just quickly Google what that is exactly. I'm assuming it's like night blindness. Retinopathy is any damage to the retina of the eyes which may cause vision impairment. So this has something to do with blood flow to the eye and it was caused by vitamin A deficiency and her vision returned to normal. after supplementing with vitamin A palmitate, a sublingual supplement, for five months.

1:44:20 Yeah, so where does it say what kind of supplement it is? Vitamin A palmitate. Oh, yeah. Sublingual vitamin A palmitate. Yeah, even if it is, then it doesn't mean that that's the one that you're talking about, the vegan one.

[video] 1:44:31 I just told you it's vitamin A palmitate.

1:44:34 Yeah, I get it.

[video] 1:44:36 Right. That's the vegan form of vitamin A. I could be wrong, but I believe I'm pretty sure every form of vitamin D. This is just a case of you not knowing what you're talking about, same as vitamin D. You're just saying, maybe I could be wrong, maybe, blah, blah.

1:44:51 I don't really care about human health. It's just whatever. It may be, yeah.

[video] 1:44:57 OK, so spherage.

[video] 1:45:01 This is a case report where a woman had vitamin A deficiency, and it was cured with treatment of vitamin A palmitate, which is a synthetic form of vitamin A. So you claimed you cannot treat deficiency with a supplement, and there's a case report where you can.

1:45:16 I'm not even talking about that. That I would have to read. I'm talking about your supposed vegan supplements.

[video] 1:45:23 Okay.

1:45:25 Yeah.

[video] 1:45:26 Okay. Well, I just told you I could be wrong, but I think most, if not all, vitamin A palmitate supplements are vegan. I'd have to look into that, but as far as I'm aware, most, if not all, are vegan.

[video] 1:45:47 Okay, Sferage, the main issue here is you can talk about like low conversion rates, genetic mutations that make it harder to convert vitamin A, whatever. Do you have any evidence that vegans have a higher rate of vitamin A deficiency compared to meat eaters? Hasn't been studied. Okay, so then how can you make that clear?

1:46:02 It could be irrelevant because if you have presented studies that prove that there's people out there, there's 50% of UK women who can't convert beta carotene to vitamin A. If your answer is eat only plants and take pharmaceuticals, then most people would say you completely lost it because most people still will not want to take medicine. Most people only want to eat food and vegans live in the delusion that they can get everything from plants and you can't. I completely proved now that you can't get vitamin A, you can't get vitamin... Many people have degenerative mutations. You can't get vitamin A. And vitamin D, for people who don't live in sunny places, you can't get it. That's it. If your ancestors take supplements, you lost it because you didn't get what you got from food.

[video] 1:46:53 Okay, well, Sferag, first of all, you have no evidence that vegans have a higher rate of vitamin A deficiency in the first place. It generally hasn't been studied. Okay, well, wait, wait.

1:47:03 You can't do it one way or the other. It has been studied.

1:47:07 They have genetic mutations, right? So if that's been studied, then you can't say that they can get vitamin A if it's not found in plants. It's an animal vitamin.

1:47:19 If 50% of UK women can convert it, then they can get it on a vegan diet by eating plants. There's no arguing here.

[video] 1:47:29 Okay, so here's a study, Dietary Intake and Nutritional Status of Young Vegans and Omnivores in Sweden. You can look that study up. They looked at intakes of these vitamins and minerals and also status, so they drew blood from these people to look at their serum levels. If you compare the, so there's a table in the study where they looked at Deficiency rates. The deficiency rate between omnivores, vegetarians, and vegans with vitamin A deficiency, it was the same. So, like, based on the most recent research available, vegans don't have a higher risk of vitamin A deficiency. Um, you also haven't really shown me any good evidence that, well, you haven't shown me any evidence, you just claimed this, that there are people who cannot convert any, uh, pro-vitamin A carotenoids into vitamin A.

[video] 1:48:29 So, I'd like to see research on that. And secondly, there are vegan supplements you can take which do work. Um, and it's actually, it's probably a little safer to take the supplement than eat animal foods because you can get the dose, you can, uh, dose very accurately.

1:48:44 So you never checked out the links that I post in the last debate here two years ago because I posted links there. Do you want me to post them now again?

[video] 1:48:51 OK. I don't think there's any point because I literally can't use Chrome. If you want to screen share.

1:48:59 I'll post the same links again.

[video] 1:49:01 Well, why don't you screen share so that you can just show everyone, and I can also see what you're posting.

1:49:17 So the issue here is. I'm simply going to link it under. If I may copy this video and upload it on my channel. Sure. Yeah, go ahead. I will just like last time link it under the video.

[video] 1:49:29 Sure, go ahead. But the issue here is you can talk about conversion rate issues and whatever. If you don't have any evidence that vegans have a higher rate of deficiency, then you just don't have any argument.

1:49:45 I told you there's more studies, but especially the one about the 50% of the UK women, but also another one which checked out men that can't convert it at all. I don't need to have a study testing their vitamin A levels if it's already proven that they can't. converted because they may still be eating vitamin a from animals this is how they get it from animal fat or from liver and if they would go on a vegan diet they would eventually die but they would definitely get sick and show nutrient deficient signs deficiencies so okay i don't need proof that because you don't need to check their vitamin a levels to know okay well yeah

[video] 1:50:30 Okay, well, Sfarage, I don't know how people normally eat in some of these countries, but I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of vitamin A that people get from their diet. It's from plant foods. It's from conversion of provitamin A carotenoids into retinol vitamin A. So, well, fine. If these people do have this gene mutation that makes it impossible for them to convert provitamin A carotenoids into fully formed vitamin A, then I'd imagine they'd just be at an increased risk of vitamin A deficiency to begin with because a major source of vitamin A, they just can't get it. And secondly, I haven't seen higher incidence rates of vitamin A deficiency in vegans. So this really just isn't a great argument from you.

1:51:23 Just because it hasn't been studied, it doesn't mean anything.

[video] 1:51:25 Well, it has been studied. There is a study out of Sweden. It's pretty recent. It's from... Oh, is that the same one? OK, I'm not sure if this is the same one.

1:51:38 But do you understand that vitamin A and B12, for example, also, which you're obviously deficient in because you hear voices and you have psychosis and depression, is stored in the liver, which means that as a vegan, you can live off the stores for a while. That doesn't prove anything. If there is proof that women and also men in the other study can convert it at all and even if you could very little which is not enough then that's proof that vegans have a problem and they should not go vegan and eat an unnatural diet okay well spherage

[video] 1:52:16 Why is that an argument against a vegan diet?

1:52:19 Because there is no vitamin A in plants, you know that.

[video] 1:52:22 Okay, sure. Okay, so let's give a hypothetical scenario here, where let's say I cannot convert any pro-vitamin A carotenoids into vitamin A. It's impossible, so the only way to get it is from a supplement or through eating animal foods. Why would I want to eat animal foods, and what particular animal foods would you recommend?

1:52:42 Well, most people get it nowadays probably from eggs because that's the kind of animal fat they eat that's still sort of popular and pretty much any other animal fat because most people, as you know, also don't eat liver anymore as they used to, but it's an animal fat.

[video] 1:52:57 Okay. Most people get it. Okay, so a few issues here. For one, these are all foods that are high in saturated fat and or cholesterol. So I know this is a contentious topic for you, but that will increase my risk of bronchitis if I eat those foods. Okay. Okay, like, you can agree, you can disagree all you want, but I'm just going to, you know, say that as an argument. Secondly, these foods aren't even particularly high in vitamin A, with the exception of liver. Eggs, I think one egg has around 10-ish percent of your daily recommended intake of vitamin A. So you'd have to eat 10 eggs in one day to get 100% of your RDA. That's kind of crazy. I could get my RDA for vitamin A from eating one small sweet potato, obviously.

1:53:49 And I have no idea how much you can convert. So because there is no vitamin A in sweet potatoes, right? So you're just guessing. And my problem is that you're playing around with people's self. Because most vegans who are watching this right now, they have no idea that there is no vitamin A in sweet potatoes. They're just absolutely stupid, essentially. They're ignorant about nutrition. they have no idea that you have to convert pigments to try to get vitamin a which humans just haven't done okay you're talking about eating man-made foods potatoes which are all cultivated so you're talking about something that human beings have never been doing they've been always getting vitamin a from animal foods so it's just ridiculous to even you just you're just assuming that somehow you could get it

[video] 1:54:34 OK, well, Sviraj, vitamin A deficiency is extremely rare in modern Western countries. And that's just because of eating a mixed diet of a wide variety of plant foods that are high in beta carotene and pro-vitamin A carotenoids, and also access to fortified food supplementation. So it's an extremely rare thing to begin with. And you haven't shown me that vegans have a higher risk of deficiency. So you're basically making a assumption about this without any actual research.

1:55:05 Let's just assume that you read the study where people can convert it. Your answer is then eat only plants and take a supplement for them if they can convert it.

[video] 1:55:18 Well, yes, and there's two reasons for that. For one reason, the alternative will increase your risk of chronic disease, particularly heart disease, because, you know, animal sources of vitamin A, high in saturated fat and cholesterol, among other things you don't want, but that's the main principal concern. And secondly, it's much easier to dose. You're going to know exactly what dose of vitamin A you're taking. You can do it under doctor supervision. With eating food, it can be a little harder to dose.

1:55:52 All right, and we can conclude this debate because my whole point was that you can get what you need from a whole foods, plant-based diet. It's a nutrition diet. You admitted it twice now with vitamin D, vitamin A. There's many more examples, but I only need two examples. So that's it. Anybody with a brain just saw that I want this debate.

[video] 1:56:10 Okay, well, Sviraj, before we end, what is the main concern with eating a nutrient-deficient diet? What's the problem with not getting all the nutrition you need?

1:56:22 You mean the symptoms of nutrient deficiencies?

[video] 1:56:25 Yeah. So are you saying there's an increased risk of chronic disease and death from not getting all the nutrition you need?

1:56:32 Now, and I don't know why you always talk about dying from micronutrient deficiencies. Micronutrient deficiencies cause a lot of symptoms. For example, if babies don't get it, then they simply don't develop as well. I'm all about optimal human health, and you're just kind of, just maybe convert, maybe take the supplement, just kind of, maybe it will somehow work out, blah, blah, blah. i want people to be super healthy and this is not what you're about you're about your religion of saving the animals which you can't even they die anyway it's just absolutely pointless and you just you don't care about human health whatsoever i really believe that you hate humans i'm pretty sure you've been a few times but okay well sphere didn't you say you want to kill and eat people

[video] 1:57:17 No, I've never seen it. Why do you lie? No, you made a video where you said you crave human flesh. And when you were hospitalized for anorexia, you said you wanted to kill the doctor.

1:57:28 I've seen bits of the video where you lied about me. And you said I was in the hospital because of what? Because of... because of something, even though I was in the hospital because of veganism. Like you completely twisted everything around.

[video] 1:57:45 Okay, well, in the video that you uploaded, you said you were staring at the sun that made you not want to eat. And then you ended up being hospitalized for anorexia. You didn't mention veganism in there.

1:57:57 It wasn't about anorexia at all.

[video] 1:57:58 I never had anorexia. OK, well, people thought you were anorexic because you were severely underweight.

1:58:05 I can totally understand that.

[video] 1:58:08 OK, by the way, there's a rumor going around that you stabbed a bunch of students and attempted suicide when you were in school. And there's a news article with your name in it. Is that is that actually you who stabbed a bunch of students somebody else's name this guy?

1:58:26 I don't want to name his channel. You can look it up. He made it up simply I don't know from what so I think pretty sure he was a vegan because He there's a video of me going to actually my school where I went when the teachers were Welcoming me and then the comments like what the fuck are you talking about? Why are the teachers welcoming him? It doesn't make any sense and then he The video is still up. The comments are put on hold. They're deleted. So you can't see the comments that clearly point that out. So it's just bullshit.

[video] 1:58:58 OK, so that's not true. Somebody else stabbed a bunch of students in, I think it was Latvia or something. And they had your name, Gotis or something, or Gotis.

1:59:09 Gotis?

[video] 1:59:10 Yeah.

1:59:12 It's like Tom and Matt is like the most common name.

[video] 1:59:16 Right, right. OK. So you didn't do that. I just wanted to ask because that's been going around.

1:59:23 You're just completely changing the subject just because you pointed out that the.

[video] 1:59:27 Well, you mentioned that I hate humanity.

1:59:30 And in one of your videos, you said that you wanted to kill... Because you want to kill babies to death and so on. Okay, cool. I don't know if your wife said it or you, that you don't want children. Yeah, that's right. Because... Because you want to play video games. No.

[video] 1:59:48 So Sferag, you mentioned in a few of your videos that one of your video titles was Serial Killers Are the Real Heroes. I've seen a few of your videos where you basically denounce the idea of human rights. We should live naturally. People should be able to fight and kill each other all they want. You're telling me you love humanity when you're saying these things?

2:00:07 Yeah, absolutely. Are you saying it's contradicting? That's just human nature.

[video] 2:00:11 OK, so it's human nature to want to kill and eat each other? I never said that. OK, so it's human nature. OK, we'll wait. So you're basically denouncing the idea of human rights, but you're saying you care about humans.

2:00:27 Yeah, of course, because those are man-made. If you care about humans and you follow nature, it's as simple as that because you're about malnourishing people and you want to give animals rights and take away human rights to eat animals. It's absolutely anti-human. Okay, well, Sferidj... Why do you start talking about some other topics now anyway?

[video] 2:00:48 Okay, well, Sferidj... Okay, well, Sferidj, I'll just end this by saying vegans have the lowest risk of chronic disease out of any diet group. And plant based dieting is associated with longevity, at least in the United States.

2:01:02 Yeah. Yeah.

[video] 2:01:05 OK, so is there anything else you wanted to say to wrap up this debate?

2:01:12 yes to follow a natural diet to eat naturally because vegans will sooner or later understand that they're going to have nutrient deficiencies i've interviewed many ex-vegans who have this and they get really bad disease that some can't recover from and supplements do not work it's a scam by pharmaceutical companies They are using vegans and making money off you. Get off the supplements. They're toxic. They're literally toxic. Actually, when you take a B12 supplement, you create stress hormones because of the toxicity, and that's why you feel so-called energy. You have no energy, of course, because of the adrenaline, for example. They're toxic. It's so easy to find out. You look at the molecular structure of vitamin C. It's spiky glass under the microscope. Supplements are never going to work. You're eating a nutrient-deficient diet and taking medicine. That's it. Thank you.

[video] 2:02:09 Okay, and my concluding statement is a vegan diet reduces risk of most of our most common chronic diseases, including heart disease, Diabetes, all cancers combined. It's associated with lower body mass, so lower rates of obesity, hypertension. And it also reduces all-cause mortality risk. So what the Epic Oxford cohort, the Adventist Health Studies, they show that vegans have a lower risk of all-cause mortality compared to meat eaters. And if you look at some of the recent research out of Switzerland, vegans don't really have a higher risk of micronutrient deficiency compared to meat eaters. You know, B12, vitamin A, some of the vitamins Farage mentioned, vegans don't really have a higher risk of deficiency. And that's due to widespread use of supplementation, eating of fortified foods.

[video] 2:03:04 And vitamin supplements, they can be dangerous, particularly fat-soluble ones and iron supplements, but vegans aren't at high risk of iron deficiency. And if you absolutely need to take supplements, it's better than the alternative of eating foods that are high in saturated fat and cholesterol, because that's just going to increase your risk of heart disease and other diseases like diabetes, certain forms of cancer. So overall, plant-based nutrition is just a better idea than eating raw animal foods that have been proven to increase risk of chronic disease. There might be some drawbacks to a plant-based diet, like it's harder to get certain nutrients like vitamin D, but you can just take a supplement and avoid heart disease. So that would be my closing statement. All right. Thanks for your time. All right, no problem. And I think I'll make a follow-up video to this discussing vitamin D, and maybe we should just have another debate.

[video] 2:04:01 If I research the topic a little more of these different vitamins and different vitamin supplements, maybe it would be worth another debate just about vitamins in particular.

2:04:12 Yeah, do some research. Okay, cool. All right. Thank you, Sparge.